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Federal Criminal TrialtranscripttranscriptKate Instruction, Apartment Photographs, Dawson Stipulation, and Jane Exhibit Rulings - Day 6 - Federal Criminal TrialBefore the jury entered, Judge Nathan addressed the limiting instruction for Kate, apartment photographs offered to corroborate Jane's testimony, a Dawson testimony stipulation, the scope of questions about Kate's counsel, and redactions to protect Jane's identifying information.
Maurene ComeyAlison MoeAndrew RohrbachChristian R. EverdellLaura A. MenningerBobbi C. SternheimAlison J. NathanJudge NathanMr. RohrbachMr. EverdellMs. ComeyMs. SternheimMs. MoeMs. Menningerproceduralsidebar
Federal Criminal Trial/Day 6/December 6, 2021
7 pages·4 witnesses·3,306 lines
Before the jury entered, Judge Nathan addressed the limiting instruction for Kate, apartment photographs offered to corroborate Jane's testimony, a Dawson testimony stipulation, the scope of questions about Kate's counsel, and redactions to protect Jane's identifying information.
Proceedings
Procedural 1Kate Limiting-Instruction RulingLine 1
Procedural 2900-Series Photograph Admissibility RulingLine 1
Procedural 3Dawson Testimony Stipulation ArrangementsLine 22
sidebarKate Cross-Examination Scope SidebarLine 6
Procedural 4Jane Exhibit Sealing RulingsLine 4
Procedural 1Proc. 1Kate Limiting-Instruction Ruling

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, v. 20 CR 330 (AJN) GHISLAINE MAXWELL, Defendant. Jury Trial ------------------------------x New York, N.Y. December 6, 2021 8:52 a.m. Before: HON. ALISON J. NATHAN, District Judge APPEARANCES DAMIAN WILLIAMS United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York BY: MAURENE COMEY ALISON MOE LARA POMERANTZ ANDREW ROHRBACH Assistant United States Attorneys HADDON MORGAN AND FOREMAN Attorneys for Defendant BY: JEFFREY S. PAGLIUCA LAURA A. MENNINGER -and- BOBBI C. STERNHEIM -and- COHEN & GRESSER BY: CHRISTIAN R. EVERDELL Also Present: Amanda Young, FBI Paul Byrne, NYPD Sunny Drescher, Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office Ann Lundberg, Paralegal, Haddon Morgan and Foreman

JUDGE NATHAN: Good morning. I received a letter briefing over the weekend regarding the government's request for a limiting instruction with respect to the next anticipated witness. The witness will testify under the pseudonym Kate. As the government has indicated, because Kate was over the age of consent in all relevant jurisdictions at the time that she alleges sexual conduct with Epstein took place, she's not a victim of the crimes charged in the indictment. On this basis the defense moved pretrial to exclude her testimony as irrelevant and prejudicial. I denied that request. I concluded based on the government's proffer that she has relevant testimony that is direct evidence of the Mann Act counts and evidence that is otherwise admissible under 404(b). To avoid jury confusion and prejudice, however, I concluded that her testimony should be limited in the description of details of the sexual conduct that does not form a basis of the charged counts and that a limiting instruction was required.

Over the weekend, the government asked for me to include in the limiting instruction a statement that I instructed the parties not to ask about details of the sexual conduct that the witness will testify occurred with Mr. Epstein. In part, the government justifies this request based on the defense's opening statement that calls into question the credibility of witnesses based on their inability to recall details. Defense opposed this request. I have considered the letters by both sides which were filed under seal pursuant to Federal Rule of Evidence 412. I accept the government's suggestion to include the language in the limiting instruction. The statement is accurate. It ensures a balanced limiting instruction, and it is fair to both sides. It is also appropriate in light of the defense's opening. One question, counsel, the draft language suggests that I direct, quote, the parties to not ask Kate details about the sexual conduct she says occurred with Epstein. I think it would be more accurate to say that I've directed the government not to so ask. I have indicated that if the defense were to do so, it would open the door for the government. So I'll hear from you as to whether your request is to indicate the parties or the government. Mr. Rohrbach.

MR. ROHRBACH: That's fine, your Honor. The government just tried to offer a more neutral instruction, but I agree that your -- that that edit is more consistent with the Court's ruling.

JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Everdell.

MR. EVERDELL: I don't think we have an objection if it's the government was directed or however --

JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. The instruction, in total, would read -- my next question after this is the parties' request as to timing of giving the instruction. So the instruction is, you'll hear testimony from the next witness about interactions that she says she had with the defendant and Mr. Epstein. I instruct you that because the witness -- I instruct you that because -- sorry. Let me start over. You'll hear testimony from the next witness about interactions that she said she had with the defendant and Mr. Epstein. I instruct you that because the witness was over the relevant age of consent at the relevant time period, any sexual conduct she says occurred with Mr. Epstein was not, quote, illegal sexual activity, end quote, as the government has charged in the indictment. For that reason, I have directed the government not to ask this witness the details of any sexual conduct she says occurred with Mr. Epstein. I instruct you that this witness is not a victim of the crimes charged in the indictment. To the extent you conclude that her testimony is relevant to the issues before you, you may consider it. However, you may not convict the defendant on the basis of the testimony regarding the sexual conduct between this witness and Mr. Epstein, nor may you consider this testimony as any kind of reflection on Mr. Epstein's or Ms. Maxwell character or propensity to commit any of the crimes charged in the indictment. Mr. Rohrbach.

MR. ROHRBACH: That's fine, your Honor. Thank you.

JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Everdell.

MR. EVERDELL: That's fine.

JUDGE NATHAN: Timing as to when to give the instruction?

MR. ROHRBACH: The government's proffer is to give the instruction before the witness testifies.

JUDGE NATHAN: So straightaway, she's sworn and I give the instruction?

MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, the government's preference is it would occur before she takes the stand. It can be after the government calls for her testimony, but that way the witness herself is not present while the instruction is given.

JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Everdell.

MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, defense prefers that the witness is on the stand when the instruction is given to the jury. We agree that it should be given before she testifies, but she should be on the stand so that the jurors can see who we're talking about and understands who it pertains to.

MR. ROHRBACH: The witness will enter the room as soon as the instruction is complete, your Honor. I think the jury will fully understand that it is in reference to that witness.

MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, the government is trying to divorce this instruction as much as they can from this witness. It's very evident that that's the purpose of doing it while she's not on the stand.

Procedural 2Proc. 2900-Series Photograph Admissibility Ruling

JUDGE NATHAN: I think what makes sense is she comes in, she's sworn before any questions on direct, I give the instruction, and then the direct testimony begins. Next issue is the 900 series. The government seeks to admit photographs of the interior of Jeffrey Epstein's New York apartment taken in 2019. The government claims that the photos are probative of how Epstein's apartment appeared when Jane, who previously testified, saw it as early as 1994 and therefore corroborates her testimony. Trial transcript at 1075 to 76. The defense objected to the photos' admission. I sustained the objection based on the current record. Trial transcript at 1077. I noted that while, quote, older photographs of immoveable objects and structures may be relevant, end quote, photos of, quote, very moveable objects, end quote, are not relevant unless, quote, there is a witness, end quote, that confirms the photos are similar to how the objects appeared years earlier. Trial transcript at 1076 to 77.

With the leave of Court, the government filed a letter on December 4th, 2021, requesting admission of at least a subset of the photographs. The defense filed a response on December 5th. I must determine the probative value of the photos and then determine if that relevance is substantially outweighed by unfair prejudice. A photograph of the scene may be relevant even if taken months or years after the time period in question if there is reason to believe the photo is probative of how the scene appeared at the earlier time. See, for example, United States v. Causey, 748 F.3d 310, which is a Seventh Circuit decision from 2014. Typically, this inquiry turns on whether the photo depicts, quote, relatively enduring or fixed structures whose locations and arrangement in location to one another would not likely have changed, end quote, in the intervening time period. I'm quoting here from United States v. Smith, 2020WL5663433, which is a District of New Mexico 2020 decision.

For example, the Seventh Circuit in the Causey case affirmed the admission of photographs of houses taken three and six years after the conspiracy ended, stating that, despite the significant passage of time, the photos were relevant because they presented the jury with the layout, size, location, and composition of the houses. 748 F.3d at 316. Similarly, a Court in this circuit admitted crime scene photos of the interior of a restaurant taken nine months later where there was no argument that the photographs at issue did not fairly and accurately depict the interior of the restaurant. Walker v. Conway, 2007WL9225072, Western District of New York, June 25, 2007. The defense argues that admission of the photos is not merely a matter of relevance and prejudice under 401 and 403, but also of authentication under Rule 901, a proposition for which the defense cites a Ninth Circuit case from 1977, United States v. Sterns, 550 F.2d 1167, which is Ninth Circuit 1977. I disagree.

Rule 901 requires that the proponent must produce evidence sufficient to support a finding that the item is what the proponent claims it is. Here, the government claims that the photographs are of Epstein's apartment in 2019, a claim that I understand will be provided via testimony and that the defense does not dispute. Whether those photos taken in 2019 are probative of how the apartment appeared in 1994 is a question of relevance under Rule 401 to be balanced with 403, not of authentication. See United States v. Certified Environmental Services Inc., 753 F.3d 72 at 90, which is a Second Circuit decision from 2014 I'll quote here. Quote, with respect to temporal relevance, we have held that a suggestion that an item of evidence relates to a period that is too remote goes to both the item's relevance and its weight. That case quotes itself from another Second Circuit case, Fitzgerald v. Henderson, 251 F.3d 345 at 365, Second Circuit 2001. Though, to be clear, the government, as I said, will still need to authenticate that the photos are of Epstein's apartment in 2019. In any event, even if analyzed under Rule 91, as I'll discuss below in a moment, Jane's testimony about the distinctive characteristics of Epstein's apartment captured in the photos that the Court will admit are a sufficient basis under 901(b)(4) which permits authentication based on the appearance, contents, substance, internal patterns or other distinctive characteristics of the item taken together with all

JUDGE NATHAN: of the circumstances. United States v. Al Farekh, 810 F.Appx 2144, Second Circuit 2020. Based on this case law, the Court will address the government's requested photographs specifically. First, the government seeks to admit six photos, Exhibits 909 through 911, and 913, 915, and 933 that depict structural features of Epstein's apartment. These photos corroborate Jane's testimony that the apartment was massive and contained lots of stone and old wood. Trial transcript 317 to 18 and 320. These are structural features likely to have remained relatively unchanged, even years later. Indeed, the defense expressly does not object to these photos. I admit these six photos. Second, I will admit the photos of Epstein's massage room, photos 902 through 904, 917 and 928, but only if the pictures on the wall are redacted.

The exhibits could corroborate several aspects of Jane's testimony, including that the room was the size of a giant walk-in closet, but space for a giant massage table in the middle of it. Trial transcript at 320. She also described it as very dark and with a red mood and testified that there was a built-in bookcase on the right-hand side. These are structural features of the massage room, not moveable objects that are unlikely to have changed during the interveining period. See United States v. Diecidue, 603 F.2d 535 at 560, Fifth Circuit 1997, which stated that, quote, the floors and walls of the house are relatively permanent fixtures, fixtures that would not likely be subject to removal. The massage table in the photo demonstrates the room's size, layout, and purpose as Jane testified to them, not to prove that it's the same massage table that Jane saw. But the pictures on the wall must be redacted from these photos.

First, the pictures on the wall are not structural or unmoveable, they don't go to the room's size, layout, or purpose. Unless a witness testified that the pictures in the 2019 photos are the same as those in the room years earlier, the photos are not probative as to the presence of those pictures. Indeed, the government admits that it would not argue the particular pictures in the photos were presented while Jane testified she was abused. Second, the government indicates that Jane agrees that Jane did not testify to any art in the massage room. Rather, she testified that she did not look at the walls in the room. The presence of the pictures, therefore, cannot corroborate Jane's testimony and the pictures on the wall risk prejudice because they're likely to distract or confuse jurors. With those photos redacted from the photos, I do conclude the probative value of the photos of the massage room is not substantially outweighed by unfair prejudice.

As indicated, the photos corroborate Jane's description of the massage room and would assist the jury in understanding the, quote, layout, size, location, and composition, end quote, of the space. Causey 748 F.3d at 316. I see little risk of prejudice. The exhibits show features of the massage room to which Jane has testified and the jury has heard because the jury will know the length of time that's passed between Jane's experience as she testified to and the photos. It can determine the photos' probative weight. See Certified Environmental Services, 753 F.3d at 90. The third set of photos that the government seeks to admit, photos 918 and 921, depict several back massagers and a bathroom drawer. The government argues that these photos corroborate Jane's testimony that Epstein used vibrators and back massagers of different sizes in abusing her. The Court will exclude these photos.

First, these items are highly moveable, such that a photo taken decades later is not probative of the items that Epstein owned at the time that Jane testified she was abused. Second, the government has not presented any testimony that the massagers in the photos match or are similar to the massagers to which Jane testified. In short, these photos have little, if any, relevance and they're likely prejudicial because they are likely to confuse the jury. The four sets of photos that the government seeks to admit, photos 936 and 938, depict a room with a stuffed tiger and a stuffed dog. The government argues that these photos corroborate Jane's testimony that Epstein's apartment contained, quote, creepy-looking animals and animal heads and strange things. Trial transcript at 305 to 318. I will exclude these photos, first, both the dog and

JUDGE NATHAN: tiger are moveable items such that the photos taken in 2019 are, without additional testimony, not probative of what Jane would have seen years earlier. Second, though Jane described artwork of animals, she did not describe a stuffed dog or tiger. The photos therefore have little corroborative value, even if, as the government argues, the dog and tiger are highly idiosyncratic. And the photos are unfairly prejudicial because they're likely to confuse the jury by suggesting that these same items were in Epstein's apartment at the time that Jane was there. Further, the idiosyncratic nature of the items is likely to distract the jury, it could delay trial as the connection to Jane's testimony is tenuous at best. I'll note that, as I've said, the schoolgirl outfits found in the New York apartment in 2019 that the government intends to introduce, as I said on Friday, I anticipate these would be admissible if the witness connects these outfits to the applicable timeframe by testifying that they're similar to the outfits she was allegedly instructed to wear. Last, the government references photos taken in Epstein's apartment that depict photos of celebrities. I think the government here represents that it doesn't intend to admit these photos but will elicit the testimony of law enforcement officers that they saw celebrity pictures. Government's brief at 12. Defense notes it would oppose admission of the photos. I'll reserve judgment until I have a better sense of what the government is seeking to do with those photos.

MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, can I ask a clarification question on the last point. I expect the government will ask that witness about the decor of Epstein's house and that the witness will say something like there were many photos of celebrities and nude photos of women, but the government would not offer any exhibits that demonstrate that fact. So the government just wants to make sure that that question would be a proper question. I understand the Court is reserving until it hears the answer.

JUDGE NATHAN: I'm reserving on the admission of the exhibits, which it sounds like you're not moving?

MR. ROHRBACH: We're not planning.

JUDGE NATHAN: I don't see anything wrong with that question.

MR. ROHRBACH: Thank you, your Honor.

JUDGE NATHAN: I note that, with my thanks to the government, the redacted photos of the 200 series were part of what the Court received in the supplemental production this morning, Ms. Comey.

MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor. I think we would propose just to offer those formally at the beginning of the trial day when the jury comes in and then it can be released to the public.

JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Any objection to this that process, Mr. Everdell?

MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, we got them pretty late, we haven't a chance to review the redactions. I'm assuming they're fine, we don't have objection to process, we would just like a chance to look at them.

JUDGE NATHAN: Of course. Let us know when you've had a chance and they can be moved in front of the jury. I will ask, so going forward, any items that had been admitted in redaction form to the extent the witness or the jury is looking at the unredacted version, the government should show the public the redacted version.

MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor.

JUDGE NATHAN: And going forward, on new exhibits, I think it should be, it's what I had imagined, but we're a little behind, that as the witness and the jury are looking at an unredacted version, the government should move at the same time the redacted version so that, simultaneous to the testimony, the public can see the redacted.

MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor.

JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Mr. Everdell.

MR. EVERDELL: I understand the Court's instructions on that --

JUDGE NATHAN: Microphone, please.

MR. EVERDELL: I understand the Court's instructions on that, so we will do our best to try to get those redacted versions cued up. It may take some time, we'll try to catch up, but we'll do our best. I understand the Court's rulings on the 900 series, but I just didn't get the full list of the massage room photos that you said could be admitted in redacted form.

JUDGE NATHAN: 909, 910, 911, 913, 915, 933. That's wrong. Those are the one you consented to. 902, 903, 904, 917, 928 with redactions.

MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor. I do have one other matter to take up, if that's appropriate.

Procedural 3Proc. 3Dawson Testimony Stipulation Arrangements

MR. EVERDELL: As you may recall, your Honor, the last witness on Friday was Sergeant Michael Dawson. The government and the defense have agreed to a testimonial stipulation, which we will execute I think shortly -- right now. We would like if the defense could read that stipulation before the calling of the next witness.

MR. ROHRBACH: No objection.

JUDGE NATHAN: And just by background, I imagine you had just one or two questions left and the government said rather than having him come back, would you stipulate to testimony, you agreed, and that's the stipulation?

MR. EVERDELL: Actually, we offered, Judge, because we didn't want him to have to travel back from Florida, but yes, that's how it worked.

JUDGE NATHAN: I appreciate both sides doing that. As you see, when I tell the jury we'll end at 5:00, we end at 5:00, but sometimes that produces issues. Obviously let me know if we're one or two questions away, but I appreciate the parties working together to aid that. So the suggestion is the jury comes out, I tell them that -- what would you like me to tell them, Mr. Everdell?

MR. EVERDELL: The government can weigh in, but I would simply tell them that the parties have reached a stipulation about some additional testimony that the last witness you heard from, Sergeant Michael Dawson, would have given on the stand. For matters of convenience, we didn't want to call him back. So the parties have agreed to read in a stipulation about his additional testimony.

JUDGE NATHAN: And then the defense could read the stip?

MS. COMEY: That's fine, your Honor. And we thank the defense for their courtesy to Sergeant Dawson.

JUDGE NATHAN: All right. That all sounds good. What else can I take up?

sidebarsidebarKate Cross-Examination Scope Sidebar

MR. ROHRBACH: There is one matter from the government, your Honor. Over the weekend, the parties had a productive conversation about topics of cross examination for Kate, the next witness. There is one matter the government wanted to raise with the Court, which is that we expect from our conversations with the defense that the defense is likely to elicit from this witness -- your Honor, may we do this at sidebar?

(At the sidebar)

MR. ROHRBACH: So the government understands that the defense is likely to elicit from this witness the name of her counsel and possibly do a courtroom identification of the witness's counsel. The government objects on the grounds that there is no relevance to either of those --

MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, my feeling is when a witness elects to have her counsel in the courtroom for support or for whatever other reason, it is fair game to ask if her counsel is here. That's a choice that the government has elected to make, it is a choice that some attorneys elect. I can say in my 35 years in practice, I have never been in the courtroom when my client testifies for this very reason.

MR. ROHRBACH: The government wouldn't object to the question, is your attorney in the courtroom today. It's the additional, what is the name of your attorney, can you point out your attorney to the jury, those questions the government thinks has no relevance.

JUDGE NATHAN: I agree. Are you represented, is your attorney here, I've certainly seen witnesses testify with their attorney in the room. So beyond that, what's the relevance of the attorney --

MS. STERNHEIM: The relevance is that this is an attorney who sat through the proffer sessions with her, this is the attorney who was instrumental in starting the Epstein Fund, this is an attorney who has written about her while this case is pending in his own book. There is a tremendous amount of handling that is going on and I think the jury is entitled to know that.

JUDGE NATHAN: How is that information going to --

MS. STERNHEIM: I'm going to ask her questions about, the book is public, she's in the book. I think that she has agreed to have her story put in a book, not in her own name, and I'm not going to make reference to her name, but I think all of these things are fair game. There are many other topics that I will be raising prior to my cross examination. This is one that the government chose to flag at this time.

MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, all of those -- those may or may not be lines of cross depending on exactly how the question is phrased, but the government is not objecting to them in advance now. The government's objection is to the specific identification of the particular counsel, which we don't think is relevant. And I'd note that I think this counsel's name was used in cross examination of other witnesses already, so the government is trying to, in part, prevent a suggestion that this lawyer is involved in some kind of broader conspiracy for which there is no evidence. So that's a level of prejudice.

JUDGE NATHAN: You can ask if she's represented, you can ask what her counsel's name is, I don't see a relevance, you can ask if your attorney is in the courtroom, a spectacle of pointing him out.

MS. STERNHEIM: I don't need to do that, Judge. I'm not trying to make a spectacle of this. I'm just trying to have the record covered.

JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow that. Counsel, any reason for sealing this?

MS. STERNHEIM: I don't think so.

MR. ROHRBACH: I don't think that's necessary. We didn't use any names.

JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Not sealed.

(In open court)

JUDGE NATHAN: Anything else to take up?

MR. EVERDELL: Nothing from the defense, your Honor.

Procedural 4Proc. 4Jane Exhibit Sealing Rulings

MS. MOE: Your Honor, one last issue with respect to three exhibits. We had a chance to review the transcript from last week from the cross examination of Jane, we noticed that there were three defense exhibits that were offered which were not offered under seal but which contained identifying information for Jane, so we wanted to address that. We conferred with defense about that. Taking those exhibits in order, the first is Defendant's Exhibit J15. So this exhibit contains some redactions, but there is additional identifying information as to Jane. I flagged that for defense counsel. What we would propose is that we work together to mark a further redacted version which would become J15R, and that J15 itself would remain as it is and under seal as it is offered during her testimony. So we'll work with the defense to propose additional redactions, mark that, and make sure that that's in the record, but I just wanted to flag that because, as it stands, the underlying exhibit is not yet received under seal and because that contains identifying information, we'd ask that that exhibit be sealed at this juncture.

MS. MENNINGER: I don't believe that J15 does have other additional identifying information, but I'm happy to speak with Ms. Moe and we can try to come to an agreement about any further redactions. It was a civil case that was filed under a pseudonym, and I don't know if we'll be able to reach agreement, but we'll certainly try as far as a further -- I don't have an objection to having a conversation about potential further redaction.

JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. So J15 is sealed pending conversation that you'll discuss about redactions and just would like to button that up by the end of the day.

MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. We'll do that.

JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you, counsel.

MS. MOE: There are two additional exhibits, those are Defendant's Exhibit J8 and J9. Those are both state court documents. There are some redactions on them in their current form, but because the unredacted versions are public, anyone in possession of these redacted versions would be able to compare them against court records that have the full information which would be identifying as to Jane. For that reason, our view is that these documents should be under seal in their current form. If the defense wants to unredact more from the sealed versions, the jury has a complete unredacted version, we certainly would have no objection to that. But because these are court documents that can be compared up against public records that would easily identify Jane if a redacted version were released to the public, and for that reason, these exhibits should be under seal.

JUDGE NATHAN: I thought I did admit that under seal, but maybe I misremembered.

MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, we ended up admitting the one complete document. It is now marked J8 and 9 because it's the one that contains the seal. I think to narrowly tailor redactions so that it can't be matched up, it may include the case number, for example, certainly the plaintiffs' names, but otherwise I think there is a way to redact this so that the public has access to the bulk of the exhibit, but just not the personally identifying information. Again, I'm happy to speak with Ms. Moe about what she believes are the things that would lead to be a personally identifying piece of information, but portions of it, including the defendants' names and other pieces were testified about publicly on the record, not under seal. So, I think to keep the entire exhibit under seal does not comport with Lugash and the other precedent that requires us to sort of take a pen to the parts that are concerning.

JUDGE NATHAN: So let's do this, same process. If I didn't already, J8 and J9 are temporarily sealed and you'll confer on redactions.

MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. We'd be happy to confer. I do want to flag, because these documents are entirely public in full, it is very easy for a member of the public to compare them against other public records, which are unredacted and have Jane's identifiers. So the redactions we would propose would be substantial and perhaps beyond recognition in order to avoid that problem. For example, in a civil case in this district, if you were print out from ECF the full docket entry and it were a public document that had identifiers for the person who filed that civil suit, in order to redact it to make sure someone couldn't troll around PACER and find the public version, you would have to redact essentially everything, and that's the problem here. The same is true for the copy --

JUDGE NATHAN: Please just take a look, see if there is an agreement that you'll propose to me, taking into account also what is already public regarding the document in the trial transcript. So, one of the lessons, too, is that simply you can't just look in isolation. So if information is already public, then redacting it -- but you'll look and see if there is some appropriate middle ground that would ensure the continued privacy of the witness consistent with the law.

MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you.

JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. And we have all of our jurors. Everybody ready? Okay. We'll bring them in.

MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, we need just a minute or two to print and sign the stipulation.

JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. We'll take a minute.

(Pause) Counsel, are you ready?

MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor, we're ready.

JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. We'll bring in the jury.

(Continued on next page)

(Jury present)

Continue to next pageDawson Stipulated Testimony and Exhibit Admissions