Kate — Direct/Cross/Redirect/Recross
1,773 linesJUDGE NATHAN: You may be seated. We'll refer to you as Kate. You may remove your mask. Members of the jury, before we begin the direct, I have a limiting instruction. You will hear testimony from the next witness about interactions that she says she had with the defendant and Mr. Epstein. I instruct you that because the witness was over the relevant age of consent at the relevant time period, any sexual conduct she says occurred with Mr. Epstein was not, quote, illegal sexual activity, end quote, as the government has charged in the indictment. For that reason, I have directed the government not to ask this witness about the details of any sexual conduct she says occurred with Mr. Epstein. I instruct you that this witness is not a victim of the crimes charged in the indictment. To the extent you conclude her testimony is relevant to the issues before you, you may consider it. However, you may not convict the defendant on the basis of the testimony regarding the sexual conduct between this witness and Mr. Epstein, nor may you consider this testimony as any kind of reflection on Mr. Epstein's nor Ms. Maxwell's character or propensity to commit any crimes charged in the indictment. Ms. Pomerantz, you may proceed with your direct examination.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. Your Honor, in light of the Court's order regarding sketch artists, I just wanted to --
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you, Ms. Pomerantz. I remind the sketch artists that witnesses who I've permitted to testify under a pseudonym shall not have their exact likenesses drawn to protect their anonymity. Thank you, Ms. Pomerantz. You may proceed.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Good morning. If you could pull up to the microphone so we can hear you.
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes. Thank you. To be clear, are you testifying under the name Kate today?
MS. POMERANTZ: Is Kate your real name?
MS. POMERANTZ: Leading up to this trial, did you ask to testify under a pseudonym to protect your privacy?
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, can you take a look, there should be a binder next to you.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, at this time, I would request that the jurors be permitted to take out their binders and turn to Government Exhibit 16, which is in evidence under seal.
JUDGE NATHAN: It is in evidence already. Let me just confirm.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Without objection, Ms. Sternheim?
MS. STERNHEIM: Without objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, you may pick up your binders, please, the large binders, and turn to GX16, which is in evidence.
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, you can pull the microphone closer to you. Thank you. Kate, can you please let me know when you're at Government Exhibit 16?
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you recognize that?
MS. POMERANTZ: What is that?
MS. POMERANTZ: Is that the name that you were born with?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, at this time, I would ask just the witness, not the jurors, to turn to what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 18.
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, please don't -- why don't you close your binders for the moment. Thank you. The witness may turn, please, to GX18. Again, members of the jury, please don't go there yet until the document has been admitted.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, do you recognize that?
MS. POMERANTZ: What is that?
MS. POMERANTZ: Is that your current legal name?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 18 under seal.
MS. STERNHEIM: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: GX18 is admitted under seal consistent with my ruling to protect this witness's anonymity.
(Government's Exhibit 18 received in evidence) Ms. Pomerantz, do you wish to publish to the jury?
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor, if we can now publish to the jury, please.
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, you may open your binder and look at GX18, please.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, how far did you go in school?
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll ask the members of the jury to put their binders away, please.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, how far did you go in school?
MS. POMERANTZ: What kind of work do you do now?
MS. POMERANTZ: What kind of work did you do before that?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you were approximately 17 years old, where were you living?
MS. POMERANTZ: What neighborhood in London did you live?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who did you live with at the time?
MS. POMERANTZ: What was your life like at home with your mother at that time?
KATE: Well, my mother was having a difficult time and she had been quite ill. So it was a bit stressful and I was alone quite a lot.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you met Ghislaine Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you meet Maxwell?
KATE: I had been dating a man and we took a trip to Paris, and he introduced me to Ghislaine Maxwell in Paris.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately how old were you at the time you met Maxwell in Paris?
MS. POMERANTZ: And approximately what year were you 17 years old?
MS. POMERANTZ: Is that 1994?
MS. POMERANTZ: And you mentioned that you met her through a friend. About how old was the friend?
MS. POMERANTZ: And what was the nature of your relationship with the friend?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you speak with Maxwell the night you met her?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did you and Maxwell speak about?
KATE: We spoke about -- we spoke about the evening and where we were, you know, we were headed to -- out for the evening. And we spoke about where I lived, we spoke about the man that I was dating. She was asking me things about myself.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did Maxwell look like when you met her?
KATE: She was very sophisticated and very elegant. And she had short -- quite short dark brown hair. She just -- she was very impressive.
MS. POMERANTZ: About how old did she seem?
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can we please pull up what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 115.
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you recognize the person in this photograph?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who is it?
MS. POMERANTZ: We can take that down, Ms. Drescher. Your Honor, at this time, I'd like to ask the witness to look at what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 109 in her binder.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. The witness may look at GX109, please.
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, are you at Government Exhibit 109?
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you recognize this?
MS. POMERANTZ: What is it?
MS. POMERANTZ: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of your physical appearance around the time you met Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 109 under seal.
MS. STERNHEIM: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. GX109 is admitted under seal consistent with my ruling regarding pseudonyms.
(Government's Exhibit 109 received in evidence)
MS. POMERANTZ: I request the jurors be permitted to open their binders and turn to Government Exhibit 109, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Jurors, you may look at your binders please and look at GX109.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: About how old were you at the time this photograph was taken?
MS. POMERANTZ: And where was this photograph taken?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I believe that the jurors can put the binder down now.
JUDGE NATHAN: Jurors, you may return your binders to the floor, please. Thank you.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you and Maxwell were in Paris, did you and Maxwell stay in touch?
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you stay in touch?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you give her your phone number?
MS. POMERANTZ: When was the next time you saw Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: How did that meeting come about?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you go to Maxwell's house for tea?
MS. POMERANTZ: Why did you go to Maxwell's house for tea?
KATE: Well, I was quite excited to be friends with her and she was friends with the man that I had been dating and she seemed very exciting and she seemed to be everything that I wanted to be. And she seemed to -- she seemed to like me, so I was excited to go.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you please describe for the jury Maxwell's house.
KATE: Yes. Her house was like a townhouse with a white front and a red door. You want me to describe the inside?
MS. POMERANTZ: Why don't we pause there.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you pull up for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 702.
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, do you recognize this?
MS. POMERANTZ: What is it?
MS. POMERANTZ: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of the outside of Maxwell's house?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 702.
MS. STERNHEIM: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. GX702 is admitted. You may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 702 received in evidence)
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, in what neighborhood was this townhouse?
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull that down. Thank you.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if any, photographs did you see inside Maxwell's house?
KATE: There were -- there were lots of photographs and many of them were of Ghislaine Maxwell with an older man with slightly peppered hair, graying hair. And in lots of the photographs, he was looking at the camera and she was looking at him.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you learned who the man in the photographs was?
MS. POMERANTZ: And who was the man in the photographs?
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you describe the rest of the townhouse for the jury, please.
KATE: Yes. When I walked in, it was carpeted in pale carpet. It was very nicely decorated, the constable and nice beautiful chairs. There was a lot of silver-framed pictures that were out. And in that visit, I was just in the living room, which is the first room which I was in, and there was a staircase going up.
MS. POMERANTZ: So focusing on the first time that you went to Maxwell's townhouse, can you describe for the jury what happened when you went to her townhouse.
KATE: Yes. I had a really lovely time and I felt really special. And I felt -- I felt that I had found a new connection that could be really meaningful to me. I had just moved back from France to England and left the school that I was -- that I was at and all my friends. And I was really happy that we had connected and that she seemed as excited as I was to have a new friend. And it was just -- I left that feeling exhilarated, like somebody wanted me, like somebody wanted to be my friend.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if any, conversations do you remember having with Maxwell about your family?
KATE: I told her that things were quite difficult at my house and that I lived alone with my mother and that she had been unwell and struggling and that she would get very bad migraines, and I would often try and take care of her and give her massages and bring her cups of tea.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if any, conversations do you recall having with Maxwell about what you wanted to do with your life?
KATE: Well, I had been offered a place at Oxford University to study law, and she shared that she had been to that university. And that I shared with her that I also was really interested in music and I loved music and I was interested in pursuing that, but I was worried to tell my parents because they really wanted me to go to law school, as most parents would. And I was quite athletic, although I was very thin, and I told her that I was interested in martial arts, as well.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if any, conversations do you remember having with Maxwell during tea about her personal life and relationships?
KATE: She told me lots of amazing things about her boyfriend and she said that he was a philanthropist and that he liked to help young people, and that, at some point, it would be really wonderful for me to get to meet him and that we shared so many things in common and that -- yeah, just that it would be great for me to get to meet him at some point.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say about how Epstein would respond to you?
KATE: Oh, she said that he was going to love me and that I was exactly the kind of person he would like to help. She seemed very genuinely excited about it, and I was excited, too.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was your reaction to the attention that Maxwell was paying you?
KATE: I mean, I was 17 and I liked to have attention. And I was -- I was lonely and I had not found a group of friends yet. So I was really glad to have found somebody who was also older than me who I felt could maybe guide me as she seemed to have a lot of connections and opportunities to guide me and be very willing to do so.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you met Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: About how long after you had tea at Maxwell's townhouse did you meet Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you meet Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you first met Epstein, approximately how old was he?
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you come to meet Epstein at Maxwell's townhouse?
KATE: Ghislaine called me and she was -- called me to tell me that he was in town and she would really love if I could come over to meet him and that it was -- there was a sense of urgency, that it was like very important that I take this opportunity.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was Maxwell's demeanor like during that conversation on the phone?
MS. POMERANTZ: Now focusing on the time when you met Epstein at Maxwell's house, who was at the house when you arrived?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you arrived, what was Jeffrey Epstein wearing?
MS. POMERANTZ: And what was Epstein doing when you arrived?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Epstein stay on the phone the entire time you were at Maxwell's townhouse?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when Epstein got off the phone?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say to Epstein about you during that visit?
KATE: She said this is the girl that I told you about and she listed some of my accolades and said, you know, about me going to -- possibly going to Oxford, but that I was also a really talented singer, that I was really athletic, and that I was strangely strong for my size.
MS. POMERANTZ: You mentioned your size. What was your size at the time?
MS. POMERANTZ: What happened next?
KATE: Next, after she said that I was very strong, she said why don't you give his feet a little squeeze to show him how strong you are.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you give his feet a little squeeze?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you say that you gave his feet a little squeeze, what does that mean?
MS. POMERANTZ: And what happened next?
KATE: And then he seemed to be very approving and he said, oh, you can go ahead and do my shoulders.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you massage Epstein's shoulder?
MS. POMERANTZ: What happened next?
KATE: He said that I was very strong and he said that he likes that I was very -- seemed to be -- know what I wanted. And they talked about something that I couldn't quite hear what they were saying about like a music producer. And then his phone rang again.
MS. POMERANTZ: After his phone rang, did you stay at Maxwell's house?
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you end up leaving?
KATE: He didn't say anything. He just answered the phone and started talking on the phone and then Ghislaine sort of ushered me out.
MS. POMERANTZ: And did you leave Maxwell's house?
MS. POMERANTZ: After you left Maxwell's house, did you hear from her again?
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately how long after you met Epstein at Maxwell's house did you hear from Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you communicate with Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say when she called you?
KATE: She said that the -- Jeffrey was going to get a massage, but the massage therapist had canceled and could I please do her a favor and help her by coming over because I had such strong hands.
MS. POMERANTZ: Were you a massage therapist at the time?
MS. POMERANTZ: Have you ever been a massage therapist?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you go to Maxwell's house?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who was at Maxwell's house when you arrived?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say when you arrived at her house?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did she comment about how often Epstein needed massages?
MS. STERNHEIM: Objection to leading.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say about Epstein and his need for massages?
MS. STERNHEIM: Objection. Leading.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow it. You may answer.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say about Epstein's need for massages?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you and Maxwell go after that conversation?
(Continued on next page)
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you describe the room for the jury.
KATE: Yes. It was dimly lit. It was a small room. There was a massage table, some towels, and Jeffrey was in the room.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was Epstein wearing?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did he do with the robe?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, was Epstein wearing under the robe?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where was he when he removed the robe?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where was Maxwell when Epstein removed the robe?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell give you?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you enter the room?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did someone close the door?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who closed the door?
MS. POMERANTZ: After the door was closed, did you give Epstein a massage?
MS. POMERANTZ: Without telling the jury the details, during the massage, did Epstein initiate sexual contact with you?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Epstein engage in a sex act with you during the massage?
MS. POMERANTZ: I'd like to move forward to the end of the massage. After it ended, where did you go?
MS. POMERANTZ: And who, if anyone, did you see?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say?
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you describe Maxwell's tone when she made those statements.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you leave Maxwell's house?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you saw Epstein again in London?
MS. POMERANTZ: About how long after the massage you just testified about did you see Epstein again?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you see Epstein again?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who invited you to her house?
MS. POMERANTZ: How did she invite you to her house?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you arrived, what, if anything, did Maxwell say?
KATE: She said, I'm so glad you're here. You did such a good job last time. He wanted you to come back.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you and Maxwell go?
MS. POMERANTZ: And when you went upstairs, was the door to the room open or closed?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who opened the door?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who, if anyone, did you see when Maxwell opened the door to the room?
MS. POMERANTZ: What was Epstein wearing?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where was Epstein standing?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where was Maxwell when you saw Epstein naked?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Maxwell leave the room?
MS. POMERANTZ: Was the door closed?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who closed the door?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you give Epstein a massage in the room?
MS. POMERANTZ: And without telling the jury the details, during the massage, did Epstein initiate sexual contact with you?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Epstein engage in a sex act with you during the massage?
MS. POMERANTZ: I want to move forward to the end of the massage. After it ended, where did you go?
MS. POMERANTZ: And who, if anyone, did you see?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say to you after the massage?
KATE: She said, Did you have fun? You're such a good girl. And I'm so happy you were able to come. This is really great. And he obviously likes you a lot.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you describe Maxwell's tone when she made those statements.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you leave Maxwell's house?
MS. POMERANTZ: Other than the three times that you saw Epstein at Maxwell's townhouse in London, did you see anyone else at her house?
MS. POMERANTZ: Other than the three times you saw Epstein at Maxwell's townhouse in London, did you see anyone else at her house?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who did you see?
MS. POMERANTZ: What did the girl look like?
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately how old were you when you saw the girl?
MS. POMERANTZ: And what did you see the girl doing at Maxwell's townhouse?
KATE: She was having tea with Ghislaine and telling -- telling Ghislaine about the things that she was interested in.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say to you about what she thought Epstein would think of the girl?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say to you about what she thought Epstein would think of the girl?
MS. POMERANTZ: After Epstein engaged in sex acts with you during massages in Maxwell's house in London, did you ever see Epstein and Maxwell again?
MS. POMERANTZ: Over the next few years, how frequently did you see them?
KATE: I saw them -- do you mean how many individual occasions or how many -- can you be specific?
MS. POMERANTZ: Sure. Over the next few years, about how many times a year did you see them?
KATE: How many times per year? It was sporadic. The first couple of years, more; probably five times the first couple of years.
MS. POMERANTZ: And on the times that you would see them, would you see them just one time or would you see them multiple times?
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you remember the exact details and dates of every single time you saw Epstein and Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: Do some details and events stand out more in your mind than others?
MS. POMERANTZ: I want to talk to you about the time period from when you were 17 years old to your early twenties. Were you in contact with Maxwell during that time period?
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you typically communicate with Maxwell during that period?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you spoke with Maxwell on the phone, what topics did Maxwell talk to you about?
KATE: She asked me what I was up to, if things were going well, if I was dating anybody, if I wanted to visit, and if anything exciting was happening.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you spoke with Maxwell on the phone, what, if anything, did Maxwell ask you to do for Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if any, sexual topics did Maxwell bring up on the phone?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you saw Maxwell in person, did there come a time when she brought sexual topics up with you?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if any, sexual topics did Maxwell bring up?
KATE: She would talk a lot about the nature of -- she would say boys, and boys and their willies, which was a euphemism for penis. How demanding Jeffrey was. And she would ask me if I knew anybody who could come and give Jeffrey a blow job because it was -- it was a lot for her to do.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell tell you about the girls for Epstein?
MS. STERNHEIM: Objection. Leading.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. I'll allow it. You may answer.
MS. POMERANTZ: About how long after you met Maxwell do you remember having conversations about those topics?
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately how many times did that -- did those sexual topics come up?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you tell Maxwell about any other girls for Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you connect Maxwell with any girls for Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say about how often Epstein needed to have sex?
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when did she make those statements?
MS. POMERANTZ: What was Maxwell's demeanor like when she would talk to you about sexual topics?
KATE: Her demeanor was very -- I would say that it was almost like a schoolgirl. And I almost felt like she was younger -- like, talking like she was younger than me, like -- which was odd. And everything was fun and everything was silly and everything was just very exciting. And just everything seemed to be like a fun, silly joke.
MS. POMERANTZ: Within the first few months of meeting Maxwell, what, if anything, did Maxwell ask you about your sex life?
MS. POMERANTZ: You testified earlier that when you went to tea at Maxwell's house in London, you told her about your family. Did you continue to tell Maxwell about your family?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did you tell her about your family?
KATE: I just continued to tell her that, you know, my mother was struggling, and that it was difficult; and that I was -- I was alone a lot.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you first met Maxwell and Epstein, what was your understanding of their relationship?
MS. POMERANTZ: In the first few years you knew Maxwell, what did you understand to be Maxwell's job?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if any, involvement did Maxwell have in managing properties?
KATE: She seemed to be pretty involved in managing properties and making sure that everything was the way that Jeffrey liked it to be. And there seemed to be a lot of rules around that.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Maxwell ever tell you what, if any, properties she owned?
MS. POMERANTZ: What did she tell you?
KATE: She told me that she owned her house in London; and that at a later time she told me that she owned her house in New York City, and that Jeffrey had got it for her.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you ever have any conversations with Maxwell about her social circle?
MS. POMERANTZ: What do you recall her telling you about her social circle?
KATE: Well, she seemed to know everybody. And she told me that she was friends with Prince Andrew, friends with Donald Trump, friends with lots of famous people. And sometimes their names would just come up in conversations or she might be talking on the phone about them with me present.
MS. POMERANTZ: I want to switch gears just for a moment. You mentioned Oxford earlier. Did you end up going to Oxford?
MS. POMERANTZ: During your late teens and early twenties, what did you do for a living?
MS. POMERANTZ: You testified earlier that Epstein initiated sexual activity with you when you were 17 years old. Approximately when did he stop initiating sexual activity with you?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you spent time with Epstein in that time period, about how often did he initiate sexual activity with you?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you spent time with Epstein, how often did he initiate sexual activity with you?
MS. POMERANTZ: When Epstein initiated sexual activity with you, was that always in the context of massage?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you spent time with Epstein, did you provide him with sexualized massages?
MS. POMERANTZ: In what locations did these sexualized massages with Epstein take place?
MS. POMERANTZ: We'll talk about those places in a bit. Apart from the first massage in London where you rubbed Epstein's feet and shoulders, were there ever any massages you provided Epstein in which nothing sexual happened?
MS. POMERANTZ: Was anyone in the room with you and Epstein while you were giving him the massages?
MS. POMERANTZ: You mentioned that after the first two massages you gave Epstein when you were 17, you saw Maxwell right after. Did anything like that happen with any other sexualized massages you gave Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: What do you remember about those interactions?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if any, gifts did you receive from Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you receive that gift?
MS. POMERANTZ: And how did you know that was a gift from Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: And what was that a gift for?
MS. POMERANTZ: What birthday?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you receive this gift before or after the two times Epstein engaged in sex acts with you during massages at Maxwell's house?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if any, conversations do you remember having with Maxwell about travel?
KATE: I remember that she was always very accommodating and told me that whenever I wanted to come and visit, that she would take care of everything; that they would take care of everything.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did those conversations about travel happen before or after she gave you the handbag?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you traveled to meet Epstein and Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately how many times did you travel to meet them?
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you remember approximately how old you were when you first traveled to meet Maxwell and Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: And do you remember approximately how old you were when you last traveled to meet both Maxwell and Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: During that time period, where did you travel to meet Maxwell and Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you traveled to meet Maxwell and Epstein, how did you travel?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who booked your travel?
KATE: I'm not always sure who booked it, but usually Ghislaine informed me about it. Sometimes one of the assistants would book it, maybe Lesley Groff.
MS. POMERANTZ: Generally speaking, where did you stay when you visited Epstein and Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: And when you say you stayed with them, where did you stay?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who owned the properties?
MS. POMERANTZ: How did Maxwell talk about the properties that Epstein owned?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who worked at Epstein's homes?
KATE: I would see staff sometimes, but I didn't know their names and I didn't have much interaction with them.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did you observe about Maxwell and her interactions with the staff?
KATE: I noticed that she was the one who mainly communicated with the staff. She seemed to be telling them -- giving them a lot of direction around doing things the way that Jeffrey wanted them done, detailed instructions around food and -- and just quite aggressive communication with them.
MS. POMERANTZ: You testified earlier about travel to Palm Beach. I want to talk about that for a minute. Who did you travel to see in Palm Beach?
MS. POMERANTZ: How many times did you visit Maxwell and Epstein in Palm Beach?
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you remember exactly when you went to Palm Beach?
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately how old were you when you went to Palm Beach?
MS. POMERANTZ: Is it possible that you were older when you went to Palm Beach?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you stay when you visited Epstein and Maxwell in Palm Beach?
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you describe for the jury the Palm Beach house.
KATE: Yes. The house had a beautiful swimming pool. And there were doors that opened up from the house onto the swimming pool. And Jeffrey had a desk that would face out onto outside so he could see out. And there was a kitchen downstairs, a small dining area, and there were bedrooms upstairs.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if any, photographs did you see in Epstein's house in Palm Beach?
MS. POMERANTZ: What do you remember about those photographs?
MS. POMERANTZ: Were the young girls clothed or unclothed in the photographs?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you see those photographs in Epstein's house in Palm Beach?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time that you were given clothing to wear when you were staying at Epstein's Palm Beach house?
MS. POMERANTZ: What were you given to wear?
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you please describe the schoolgirl outfit for the jury.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you find the schoolgirl outfit?
MS. POMERANTZ: What did you do after finding the schoolgirl outfit?
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Ghislaine say?
KATE: I asked her what -- what was happening with the -- there were clothes in my room. And she said, I thought it would be fun for you to take Jeffrey his tea in this outfit.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you put on the schoolgirl outfit?
MS. POMERANTZ: Why did you put on the schoolgirl outfit?
KATE: I didn't know -- I didn't know how to say no to that. I was -- I didn't know anybody in Florida. I'd never been to Palm Beach or Florida before. I had no idea even where the house was or how -- and I wasn't sure if I said no, if -- if I would have to leave or what kind of consequence there might be for not doing it.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did you do after you put on the schoolgirl outfit?
KATE: Ghislaine gave me a tray and told me to go and walk to where Jeffrey was and bring -- bring him the tray.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you go and find Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you find him?
MS. POMERANTZ: Was Epstein alone?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who was he with?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did the trainer stay with him?
MS. POMERANTZ: After the trainer left, without getting into the details, did Epstein initiate sexual contact with you?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Epstein engage in a sex act with you?
MS. POMERANTZ: What if later --
MS. POMERANTZ: Withdrawn, your Honor.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell say to you later that day?
KATE: She asked me if I had fun, and told me that I was such a good girl, and that I was one of his favorites. And that's it.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Epstein engage in sexual activity with you again during that trip?
MS. POMERANTZ: One time or multiple times?
MS. POMERANTZ: You testified earlier that you went to the island. What is the island?
MS. POMERANTZ: What was the name of the island?
MS. POMERANTZ: When you went to the island, who invited you there?
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when did you go to the island?
MS. POMERANTZ: When Maxwell invited you to the island, what, if anything, did she ask you to do?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did sexualized massages with Epstein take place on the island?
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you recall seeing anyone other than Epstein and Maxwell when you visited the island?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who do you remember seeing?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just a moment?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you.
(Counsel conferred)
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, at the beginning, why did you start spending time with Maxwell and Epstein?
KATE: At the beginning, it was a combination. In the beginning, I wanted to maintain a relationship with Ghislaine. And I thought that they were going to be -- I thought she was going to be my friend.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did that change over time?
MS. POMERANTZ: Through your twenties and early thirties, did you continue to communicate with Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: Without using any words from the communications, what was the tone of your communications with Epstein generally?
MS. STERNHEIM: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear.
JUDGE NATHAN: Friendly.
MS. POMERANTZ: Why did you keep communicating with Epstein through your twenties and early thirties?
KATE: I was -- I did not want to admit what had happened to me. And I felt that by ceasing communication, I would have to acknowledge the events that had taken place and I would have to say something. I was also fearful of disengaging because I had witnessed how connected they both were and I was fearful.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you stopped communicating with Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when?
MS. POMERANTZ: And approximately when did you stop spending time with Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when did you stop spending time with Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: Spending time.
MS. POMERANTZ: I want to switch gears. When you were a teenager and in your twenties, were you addicted to any substances?
MS. POMERANTZ: What were you addicted to?
MS. POMERANTZ: How often did you use cocaine, alcohol, and sleeping pills?
MS. POMERANTZ: When was the last time you used those substances that you just mentioned?
MS. POMERANTZ: Why did you stop using those substances then?
KATE: When I first started using substances, they helped me to cope with the way that I was feeling. And then the substance use got out of control and started to destroy my relationships and my health and my peace of mind. And I felt that I was going to die if I continued.
MS. POMERANTZ: Has your prior drug and alcohol use affected the memories you have?
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you explain?
KATE: The memories I have of significant events in my life have never changed. My memory -- there are things that I have missed that happened that sometimes I later recall. The memories I have are the memories I have.
MS. POMERANTZ: Directing your attention to August 2019, did there come a time when you were interviewed by the government?
MS. POMERANTZ: Was FBI present for the interview?
MS. POMERANTZ: Before that day, had you ever talked to law enforcement about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: That same day did you speak publicly about some of the experiences that you testified about here today?
MS. POMERANTZ: And when you did that, did you talk about all of the details that you shared with the government?
MS. POMERANTZ: Why not?
KATE: I have a huge amount of humiliation and shame and -- around the events that took place. I was not ready to share that in detail on a public level.
MS. POMERANTZ: If you have spoken publicly before, why did you ask to testify under a pseudonym here today?
KATE: I asked to testify under a pseudonym because I have a child. And I do not wish for her to be associated with or exposed to any negative connotation that this might bring.
MS. POMERANTZ: You testified earlier that you first spoke with the government in August 2019. About how many meetings have you had with the government since that time?
MS. POMERANTZ: What is your immigration status?
MS. POMERANTZ: And what is that?
MS. POMERANTZ: What does that mean?
KATE: It can be extraordinary ability in many different areas. Initially, I was a singer/songwriter, but it extends to any artist.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you asked the government to sponsor you for a visa?
MS. POMERANTZ: At the time you made the request, approximately how many meetings had you had with the government?
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately how long had you been meeting with the government at the time you raised your immigration status?
MS. POMERANTZ: Has the government made any promises to you about your immigration visa?
MS. POMERANTZ: I'm going to switch gears. Have you participated in a compensation fund called the Epstein's Victims' Compensation Program?
MS. POMERANTZ: What did you do as part of that fund?
MS. POMERANTZ: How much money did the fund pay you?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did that money come from the Estate of Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. POMERANTZ: Has that money been wired to you already?
MS. POMERANTZ: But a portion of that has been?
MS. POMERANTZ: As part of receiving that money, did you have to sign a waiver agreeing not to sue any of Epstein's employees?
MS. POMERANTZ: You mentioned that you didn't -- you weren't wired the total amount. What happened to the rest of it?
MS. POMERANTZ: Have you ever sued Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you plan to sue Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: Are you hoping or expecting to get any more money for what happened to you with Epstein and Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: Based on your understanding, will the jury's verdict in this case affect the award that you received from the fund?
MS. POMERANTZ: Just to be clear, do you have any financial stake in the outcome of this trial?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred)
MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Thank you. We'll take our morning break. Members of the jury, we'll break for about 10 to 15 minutes. See you soon. Thank you.
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: The witness may step down and out for the break. Thank you. Everyone may be seated.
(Witness not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Counsel, are there matters to take up?
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Just a moment. Ms. Sternheim.
MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, in light of this witness's anonymity status, I think it's appropriate to do it at a sidebar. If the Court feels otherwise, then we can come into open court.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
(Pages 1211 to 1231 SEALED)
(Continued on next page)
(Recess)
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Counsel, let me just finish up where I am before we get going.
(At the sidebar)
JUDGE NATHAN: On the sexual harassment claim, I'm not going to allow it if there were a pattern of repeated allegations of the same kind, even if you didn't have a proffer as to falsity, then it would be a closer call, but in the absence of any proffer as to falsity and in light of the one instance of sexual harassment, I won't allow it. I think our other open on is the tabloid; correct? I'm going to allow that because there is a notion of exception of a friend which goes to the credibility and is impeachment. I think that resolves all of our open issues.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I wanted to note one thing that I had the chance to go back and look at some of the 3500 material, and I know that there was planning to ask the witness about an unsigned declaration involving I think the witness's exhusband; is that right?
MS. STERNHEIM: No, it has nothing to do with her exhusband. I was going to ask if she asked a friend or former person in her life if he had -- she had asked him to plant the drugs on the father of her child.
MS. POMERANTZ: So I wanted to flag this because I had a chance to go back and look at the 3500 material and she has explained that she was a victim of domestic violence by the -- by her daughter's father, and I'm happy to provide the page number, that she's filed restraining orders against him and that there were -- there was issues with that. And so, to the extent that Ms. Sternheim intends to ask that, I do think that it would permit me to, on redirect, ask questions about the circumstances around that.
JUDGE NATHAN: I agree. But you'd ask questions around the circumstances of that, but I'll permit that question. Anything else? All right, thank you.
(In open court)
JUDGE NATHAN: Can we have the witness come back, please.
MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, may I hand you a binder? I'm not sure we're going to need to use it, but I do have one for Kate, as well. May I?
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes. Bring in the jury.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you so much, members of the jury. Sorry for the slightly -- we took the extended break that allowed me to work through some things with the lawyers to facilitate overall the efficiency of the process. So thank you for your patience. Ms. Sternheim, you may begin your cross examination of the witness testifying under the name of Kate. Kate, I remind you, you are under oath. Go ahead, Ms. Sternheim.
MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. STERNHEIM:
MS. STERNHEIM: Good morning, Kate. I have some questions to ask you. During your direct examination, you had stated that Ghislaine was everything you wanted to be; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Now, you had a very beautiful mother, didn't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: She was a debutante; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: She was married to a wealthy -- well, your stepfather is a wealthy man; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: He had his own plane; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Your mother and your stepfather, and in turn, you and your brother lived a comfortable life at some point, didn't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: You lived in the Belgravia section of London. That's a very tony area of London, isn't it?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you lived quite close to Kinnerton Street, which is where Ghislaine lived; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: In fact, Ghislaine lived on the street that also is the street of the Nags Head Pub; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And that pub is a rather famous pub in London, isn't it?
MS. STERNHEIM: But it was right across the street, nonetheless, from Ghislaine's home at 44 Kinnerton, wasn't it?
MS. STERNHEIM: Now, going back to your mother for a moment, you would watch and see the attention that your mother got because of her beauty, didn't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: And didn't you say that you wanted to garner that same kind of attention because you liked the way people looked at her?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. You may answer.
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, you've spoken to a number of tabloids and magazines throughout the year, haven't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: You have been featured in a number of magazines and news articles, haven't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: You have spoken about your life on a number of occasions, haven't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: And your picture has been in a number of magazines, as well; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: During the period of time that you testified meeting Ghislaine and Epstein, you were an international model?
MS. STERNHEIM: You met Ghislaine in Paris when you had traveled there with the older prominent gentleman with whom you had been dating at the time; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you learned that that individual was an Oxford classmate of Ghislaine; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Now, through the relationship that you had with that older gentleman, you met a variety of people in the fashion industry, didn't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: And through those connections, you met fashion journalists; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, didn't you once say that you were in the right place at the right time and your career in modeling was launched?
MS. STERNHEIM: And didn't you also say that even without those connections, you believed that you would have made it anyway in modeling?
MS. STERNHEIM: You have also considered yourself to be fiercely ambitious; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: In fact, back in around 2004 when you were interviewed, you said that for as long as you could remember, you were ambitious. Do you remember that?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you also said that you spent 90 percent of your time thinking about the next move; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: But the other 10 percent was that you were thinking about your dog, wasn't it?
MS. STERNHEIM: And at that time, you had a very large Great Dane; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: At the time you made that statement when you said the other 10 percent was thinking about your dog?
MS. STERNHEIM: In around 2004, you did have a Great Dane, didn't you?
KATE: I don't remember the date, but I did have a Great Dane, that I did used to have a Great Dane.
MS. STERNHEIM: But there was a period in time in which you became very well known as a model; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, you were on billboards, weren't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you were a model for a U.K. version of Victoria's Secret, weren't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: You never were a model for an organization that sold lingerie?
MS. STERNHEIM: But it was a lingerie company?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you also were a model for clothing, weren't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: And Milinery & Hanbex (ph.); correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: But suffice it to say, you had photo shoots in various parts of Europe. Milan?
MS. STERNHEIM: Paris?
MS. STERNHEIM: And London?
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you also model in the United States?
MS. STERNHEIM: There came a time when you did come to the United States, though; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You moved to the United States at some point in your career; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you came here on the visa you described which, in your situation, was an entertainment or talent visa, wasn't it?
MS. STERNHEIM: But your extraordinary ability at that time was to go to Hollywood, wasn't it?
MS. STERNHEIM: Okay. Fair enough. You were a musician; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You were a singer; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: In fact, when you were younger, 16 or 17, you were living in the South of France; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you were at a -- I guess a piano bar where you were discovered by the musician Seal, weren't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: Never?
MS. STERNHEIM: You never told that to the press at all?
MS. STERNHEIM: You produced your own album or CD; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you launched it on your own; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And fair to say that was the only album or CD you ever launched?
MS. STERNHEIM: You also were an actress, weren't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, whether it was your trade or not, it is fair to say that you acted in movies; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you were in a movie with a very well-known British actor; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you were in a couple of other movies, as well, over the years, weren't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, I'm going to ask you to look at a list that should be in your folder --
JUDGE NATHAN: Please direct the government and me before the witness.
MS. STERNHEIM: I will. I just want to get the number, Judge. I apologize.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MS. STERNHEIM: I apologize, Judge. I gave my copy.
MS. STERNHEIM: I'm going to ask you what's been marked as defense K7, it should be tabbed in your binder.
JUDGE NATHAN: Tab 7, counsel?
JUDGE NATHAN: My binder does not have K7.
MS. STERNHEIM: I apologize about that. Your Honor, I do have paper copies. May I hand them up?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. STERNHEIM: I apologize about that.
MS. STERNHEIM: I'm just going to ask you to take a look at that list and I'm going to ask you to look at number 21.
MS. STERNHEIM: Is that a movie that you were in?
MS. STERNHEIM: No? Number 3, is that a movie that you were in?
MS. STERNHEIM: And number 29, is that a movie that you were in?
MS. STERNHEIM: Are you familiar with the IMBD system?
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes. I apologize.
MS. STERNHEIM: And if those were listed in your IMDB, would those indicate that you were involved with those productions?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Grounds?
MS. POMERANTZ: Foundation.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you look at your listings to see whether they are accurate or not?
MS. STERNHEIM: You also starred in a reality show, didn't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: And that reality show had to do with individuals who wanted to make it in Hollywood; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And what period of time were you involved in that?
MS. STERNHEIM: 19 years ago?
MS. STERNHEIM: And in light of the visa that you had, you were committed to work in that industry; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: So it was after you did the reality show that you then moved to the United States?
MS. STERNHEIM: And when you moved to the United States, it was at that time that you were in the music business?
MS. STERNHEIM: And the purpose of your visa at that time was to permit you to move to the United States to work in the music industry; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You no longer are in the music industry; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: A music therapist?
MS. STERNHEIM: And are you licensed as a music therapist?
MS. STERNHEIM: But you hold yourself out to be a music therapist; correct? I couldn't hear you, I'm sorry.
MS. STERNHEIM: At some point, did you begin a foundation?
MS. STERNHEIM: Without using the name, that was a foundation that was for women with substance abuse; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And it is a residential environment for women to live in; correct?
KATE: It's actually no longer a foundation, it was dissolved, but it was a residential facility, yes.
MS. STERNHEIM: And you launched that in approximately 2019; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And there are videos about it, aren't there?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you and a partner or another woman with whom you worked had produced some videos for that foundation; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And it was launched in 2019 and it no longer exists; correct?
KATE: I think it was in 2019, but I don't know the exact date, but you are correct, it no longer exists.
MS. STERNHEIM: And after you received your settlement money in connection with the Epstein victim compensation fund, you no longer were involved in that foundation; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: But it shut down around the time that you began cooperating with the government; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You received your settlement a year ago this week; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Earlier, the government had asked you about having made a public statement at some point in 2019 concerning Mr. Epstein. Do you remember that?
MS. STERNHEIM: On direct examination, you were asked about having made a public statement in connection with Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you made a public statement in this very courthouse; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you made that public statement using your true name; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you testified earlier that the reason why you're not using your true name is to protect your child; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You had a child at that point, didn't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: And your lawyer also introduced you using your true name at that public hearing; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you were represented by a lawyer named Brad Edwards; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And Mr. Edwards has represented you in connection with the claim that you made against the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: In fact, Mr. Edwards was instrumental in setting up that fund, wasn't he?
MS. STERNHEIM: Is he here with you today?
MS. STERNHEIM: He's in the courtroom; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you have consulted with him concerning your appearance here?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: That statement that you made in this courthouse was after Epstein died; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you and a number of other people accusing Epstein of abuse were invited by a judge in this courthouse, named Judge Berman, to speak publicly; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you took that opportunity to speak publicly?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you spoke publicly with regard to Jeffrey Epstein; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You did not speak with regard to Ghislaine Maxwell?
MS. STERNHEIM: And right after that very day that you made that statement was the first time that you sat down with the government in connection with things that you were testifying to today; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And right after you sat down with the government, which was right after you had spoken publicly, you appeared on television with regard to your allegations; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you appeared on television with other women who had been present during that public court appearance; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And there were about six of you who were featured on a television show; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Talking about your allegations against Jeffrey Epstein; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you all appeared as a sisterhood of accusers against Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes.
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes.
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, you were somewhat affectionate to one another on the show, weren't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: You were supportive of one another on the show; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, you had met them for the very first time that day?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you continued maintaining contact with some of them; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You would be on chat groups with them for a period of time?
KATE: I actually was only on the chat group for a very small amount of time. I left the chat group.
MS. STERNHEIM: But nonetheless, for at least a small period of time, you were involved in the chat group with other individuals, other women who claimed they had been abused by Jeffrey Epstein; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you had also maintained contact with an individual named Virginia Roberts; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you and Virginia Roberts are represented by the same attorney, Bradley Edwards?
MS. STERNHEIM: You never have spoken to her about that at all?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Grounds?
MS. POMERANTZ: Hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: You're aware that your attorney wrote a book about your case and the case of others while he has been representing you; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you read that book, didn't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: But you knew that you were going to be included in that book; correct?
KATE: To my knowledge, those only -- I think there was only one sentence about me. I don't think there's anything about any details of anything .
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you give permission to your attorney to be referenced or written about in that book?
MS. STERNHEIM: So before it was published, you knew that some of your story was going to be in that book; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you have a private practice where you are a music therapist?
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you have a private practice in which you are a music therapist?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you do that in California?
MS. STERNHEIM: And are you required to be licensed to hold yourself out as a music therapist?
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you collect monies from insurance by your clients?
MS. STERNHEIM: It is all cash or check?
MS. STERNHEIM: Now, you've testified that there was a period of time, I think upwards of ten years, that you used drugs; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You used cocaine; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You used sleeping pills; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you also used alcohol; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And it is your testimony that you abused those substances; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: To the point where, after approximately ten years of use, you decided you no longer wanted to engage in that; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you have lived a sober life since then; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And that, in part, is what you were promoting with your foundation, weren't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: I apologize. I don't mean promoting. I mean promoting sobriety and support for women who had also had addictions?
MS. STERNHEIM: Understood.
MS. STERNHEIM: Fair to say that using and abusing those substances over a ten-year period has had an impact on memory; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: The memories that you have always had are your personal memories; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And memories based upon your perception of experiences; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: But you have testified today about experiences during a period of time where you were abusing drugs; correct?
KATE: The memories that I testified to were at periods when I was always sober because I was always required to not take drugs and not be drunk around Ghislaine and Jeffrey.
MS. STERNHEIM: Because you knew that they did not tolerate drug use; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You knew that they did not tolerate drug use; correct?
KATE: That's just what they asked of me. I didn't know what their tolerance was outside of that.
MS. STERNHEIM: So during the period of time that you were with them, you weren't snorting cocaine?
MS. STERNHEIM: You just were able to go cold turkey during those periods of time; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And afterwards, you went right back to your habit of using cocaine, using alcohol, using sleeping pills?
MS. STERNHEIM: But nonetheless, your periodic drug use had a negative impact on your life, didn't it?
MS. STERNHEIM: Enough to the point where you wanted to end that type of behavior so that you could go forward as a sober person?
MS. STERNHEIM: Now you've testified that you met Ghislaine at her home on Kinnerton Street when you were 17 years old; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And I think you said, when asked to do the math, that it was approximately 1994; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And it was during that period of time, 1994 around the age of 17, that you went to Ghislaine's home with the red door across from Nags Pub on Kinnerton Street; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And that is where you met Epstein; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Now, there came a point where -- well, during this period of time, were you still involved with that prominent older gentleman who had introduced you to Ghislaine?
MS. STERNHEIM: You've had an on-and-off friendship or dating situation with him for a period of time?
MS. STERNHEIM: Friends that took you to Paris; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: He also hosted you at his weekend home; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you've also dated other men; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: In fact, you even married one of the men that you dated; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, I'll start. Have you been married?
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you marry a prominent restauranteur?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you were married during the period of time that you say you were with Ghislaine and Epstein; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, you testified about spending time with them at the Kinnerton residence in Belgravia; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You also testified that there came a point where you also spent time with them in the United States; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: When did you get married?
MS. STERNHEIM: You were 23?
MS. STERNHEIM: You've also told the government at various times that you were married at 18 or 19?
MS. STERNHEIM: That you were married at 20 or 21?
MS. STERNHEIM: That you were married during the time of the World Trade Center disaster?
MS. STERNHEIM: In fact, there came a time where were you in the United States and didn't make it back to London while your husband was waiting for you at the airport; isn't that correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Didn't you have a situation where you told the government that you missed your flight?
MS. STERNHEIM: You did not get on your flight. You met a man named Kevin and you went home with him?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you meet a man named Kevin?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Grounds, Ms. Pomerantz.
MS. POMERANTZ: Relevance, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: We'll see. I'll allow it, but if we need to have a discussion, let me know. I'll allow it.
MS. STERNHEIM: Did there come a time that you were flying back to London from the United States when you missed your flight?
MS. STERNHEIM: And did there come a time that you were assisted by a man that you had met after you had missed your flight?
MS. STERNHEIM: And did you have occasion to go to that man's home?
MS. STERNHEIM: And did you have occasion --
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: I think we need to have a sidebar.
(At the sidebar)
JUDGE NATHAN: Where are we going, Ms. Sternheim?
MS. STERNHEIM: We're going to the fact that this woman was married at the time, she left her husband to travel to spend time with Ghislaine and Jeffrey Epstein, and then, at some point, something happened to her on her way home.
JUDGE NATHAN: What is the relevance?
MS. STERNHEIM: It all goes to what her state of mind was when she is testifying about what happened during this period of time.
JUDGE NATHAN: State of mind?
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the defense is asking questions that are very suggestive of something --
MS. STERNHEIM: I'm sorry. I didn't hear you.
MS. POMERANTZ: The defense is asking questions that are very suggestive of something, but I have not yet heard a proffer about that and it seems like where they're going with this is an issue that should have been raised as a 412 issue.
JUDGE NATHAN: Are you suggesting she had an affair?
MS. STERNHEIM: No, she said she was associative as if she was using drugs. I'll move on.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Move on.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court)
BY MS. STERNHEIM:
MS. STERNHEIM: Kate, did there come a time that you divorced your husband, the restauranteur?
MS. STERNHEIM: And how long were you married at that point?
MS. STERNHEIM: And prior to marrying him, had you been engaged to other people?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow it.
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you ever marry again?
MS. STERNHEIM: But you dated other people throughout the years; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you also have a child; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: With someone with whom --
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may we be heard at sidebar, please.
(Continued on next page)
(At the sidebar)
MS. POMERANTZ: The government is concerned about this line of questioning. She's asking a series of questions about her romantic history. It seems unduly invasive.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. We had an earlier sidebar. I permitted her to ask questions based on the declaration regarding someone who said she planted drugs on the person that she's now asking a question about. So, how is the objection consistent with that ruling?
MS. POMERANTZ: I understand that ruling, your Honor -- my understanding is I frankly didn't know that's where it was going, but it's also my concern is that it's been a series of questions that have just been basically a litany of questions --
JUDGE NATHAN: Counsel, when you have an objection, I rule on it. A series of questions objections doesn't fly. Please bear in mind my rulings, that that is why we do it at the sidebar, that's why the jury had a 45-minute break. I don't need a sidebar every time a question that I've approved is asked.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court)
BY MS. STERNHEIM:
MS. STERNHEIM: Kate, were you involved in a custody dispute with the father of your child?
MS. STERNHEIM: And Kate, did you ask a friend to plant drugs on the father of your child to advance your custody case?
MS. STERNHEIM: And are you familiar with a man named Tim Powers?
MS. STERNHEIM: And as you sit here, you did not ask Mr. Powers to help you with your custody dispute?
MS. STERNHEIM: You had been involved in a situation in the late '90s involving a man who is connected to the Royal Family. Do you know who I'm talking about?
MS. STERNHEIM: And that was someone who you had a friendship with; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: But a friendly acquaintanceship, it was someone that you had spoken to at times; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And the two of you had an interaction while you were at the Cannes Film Festival in France; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you had been approached by a tabloid to engage that gentleman in a situation; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You were not asked to encourage that man to get you cocaine?
MS. STERNHEIM: You were never approached by a tabloid to have that man recorded?
MS. STERNHEIM: But, in fact, he was recorded, wasn't he?
MS. STERNHEIM: And he was recorded in conversation with you when you tried to get him to get you drugs; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And that became a big tabloid spectacular, wasn't it?
MS. STERNHEIM: And that was because of his standing in connection to the Royal Family; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And it was quite embarrassing for him and his family; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You can't even imagine that that would have been embarrassing for him?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, you were embroiled in that, as well. Your name got in the paper about it, didn't it?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Was that an embarrassing experience for you?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you were paid approximately £40,000 for your involvement in that, weren't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: You just did it for free?
MS. STERNHEIM: Embroiled that acquaintance in a drug scandal?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection to form.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you have a conversation with him asking him to get you drugs?
MS. STERNHEIM: Was that conversation recorded?
MS. STERNHEIM: And was that conversation and the circumstances surrounding that publicized in a British tabloid?
MS. STERNHEIM: And as you said, it was embarrassing for you; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Now, I want to speak to you for a few minutes about your interactions with Epstein; okay?
MS. STERNHEIM: You were aware that sometime toward the late 2000s, Epstein was incarcerated; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you sent him pictures while he was in jail, didn't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you recall having emailed correspondence with him?
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you recall that he asked for pictures and you agreed to send him pictures?
MS. STERNHEIM: During the course of your preparation with the government, were you shown any of the emails that you had with Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes.
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you talk to the government about emails?
MS. STERNHEIM: And did you talk about having sent pictures to Jeffrey Epstein while he was in jail?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, let me show you -- I'm going to ask you to look at your tab.
JUDGE NATHAN: Tell the government and me the tab first.
MS. STERNHEIM: I'm getting to it, Judge. Just a moment. I'm going to refer the government, the Court, and Kate to the tab 3513-019, and it may be at 019.
JUDGE NATHAN: I don't have tabs by 3500.
MS. STERNHEIM: May we put it on the screen for the witness and the Court?
JUDGE NATHAN: Sure. But you have to direct the government. Do you have it, Ms. Pomerantz?
MS. STERNHEIM: I will show them.
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor, I have it. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MS. STERNHEIM: This one.
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes. Thank you.
BY MS. STERNHEIM:
MS. STERNHEIM: Kate, do you see what is marked as 3513-019?
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you recognize that?
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you recognize that to be email correspondence that you had with Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. STERNHEIM: And does that have to do with correspondence that you had with him when he was in jail?
MS. STERNHEIM: And that correspondence has to do with sending pictures to him; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Your Honor, I would move this into evidence as 3513-019.
JUDGE NATHAN: Can you give it an identification trial exhibit, please.
MS. STERNHEIM: Defendant's K8.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Pomerantz.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government objects. Hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
BY MS. STERNHEIM:
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you send pictures to Jeffrey Epstein while he was in jail?
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you tell him you would send him pictures?
MS. STERNHEIM: And did you sign your correspondence to Jeffrey Epstein, "Best love always, Kate"?
MS. STERNHEIM: Now, you maintained email correspondence with Epstein even after he was in jail, didn't you?
MS. STERNHEIM: I'm going to ask you to look at what's been marked as 3513-014.
JUDGE NATHAN: I don't have a tab number.
MS. STERNHEIM: I'll put it on the screen, Judge.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Pomerantz, do you have that?
MS. POMERANTZ: I do. Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. You can put it on the screen.
BY MS. STERNHEIM:
MS. STERNHEIM: Just going back for a moment, the correspondence that you had with Epstein concerning pictures which you claim you didn't send him was in 2008; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Okay. And you don't deny that you had email correspondence with him?
MS. STERNHEIM: Okay. Now, looking at this next exhibit, 3513-014, do you see that?
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you recognize that to be email correspondence that you had with Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. STERNHEIM: Correspondence that you had with him in 2011?
MS. STERNHEIM: And do you recall telling Jeffrey that you were --
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you, at any point, attempt to visit Epstein in New York?
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you contact him for the purpose of arranging to visit him in New York?
MS. STERNHEIM: I did not ask you that. I asked you, did you contact him?
MS. STERNHEIM: You initiated email contact with him; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You initiated contact because you wanted to meet with him in New York?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you also asked if you could stay at his place in New York; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And then you learned that he was not in New York; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: To the question, you learned he was not in New York?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, to the series of questions about -- this goes to hearsay.
MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, may we approach?
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
MS. STERNHEIM: You initiated contact with Jeffrey Epstein in 2011; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You asked to visit with him in New York; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You asked if you could stay with him in New York; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: He was not in New York; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You learned that he was in Paris; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Throughout the years, you maintained contact with Jeffrey Epstein; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You had emails that support the contact you had with Epstein; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You don't have any email correspondence with Ghislaine, do you?
MS. STERNHEIM: When was the last time you had communication with Epstein?
MS. STERNHEIM: Give me a date, please.
MS. STERNHEIM: When were you in your early 30s?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, you just said when you were in your early 30s, I asked for a date, you said you don't have one. Please tell me the years in your early 30s.
MS. STERNHEIM: So fair to say through 2012, you were in contact with him?
MS. STERNHEIM: Or maybe even later?
MS. STERNHEIM: You just stopped at some point?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you stopped at the point that you became a mother; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And what was your employment while you became a mother?
MS. STERNHEIM: Was that the same foundation we were talking about?
MS. STERNHEIM: Something different?
MS. STERNHEIM: And that was your employment during that period of time that you became a mother?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, I don't want to go into the details, but there came a point where you delivered a baby; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you were employed at that time?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you also sought support from the government during that period of time so you could stay home with your child?
MS. STERNHEIM: And even though you are employed, you sought benefits from the government so you could stay home?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, I asked you if you were employed at that period of time. You said you were working for a residence; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: What company? You don't have to tell me the name of it, just tell me what type of company it was.
MS. STERNHEIM: So you were working for a financial company at the time you gave birth, yet you requested public assistance so you could stay home with your child?
MS. STERNHEIM: Now, in connection with the claim that you made beginning after you testified in this courthouse following Jeffrey Epstein's death, you sought compensation for therapeutic services; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And in connection with your assistance with the government, the FBI victim services awarded you money so that you could seek therapy; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, do you doubt that you received money for therapy?
MS. STERNHEIM: Okay. But your therapy was paid for by the government; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you had been in email contact with one of the FBI victim services liaison, both in New York and California; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: In fact, they sent you a victim's form to fill out; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you commented on issues concerning the form that they were somewhat complicated. Do you remember that?
MS. STERNHEIM: But nonetheless, you completed the form; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And they also alerted you to resources in the area where you were living?
MS. STERNHEIM: Even though, as a therapist, you knew about the resources in the area where you were living; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You were not aware of that?
MS. STERNHEIM: And in connection with the work that you do in your foundation and the other residence, you were not familiar with therapeutic services for women claiming to have been abused?
MS. STERNHEIM: Nonetheless, they put you in the direction of services that you could avail yourself of; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Some of which they paid for; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And they also alerted you to facilities or situations where you could get free therapy; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And in connection with the three and a quarter million dollars that you received from the compensation fund, you paid back some of that money; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes.
MS. STERNHEIM: And that was $1,200?
MS. STERNHEIM: You don't dispute that?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
MS. STERNHEIM: I'll move on.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. STERNHEIM: You're familiar with a man named Ray?
MS. STERNHEIM: Are you familiar with --
MS. STERNHEIM: May I have just a moment, Judge?
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes.
MS. STERNHEIM: Are you familiar with a man — and I'm going to use a name, it's going to sound like a Broadway play — Alexander Hamilton?
MS. STERNHEIM: Are you familiar with a man that goes by the name Ray Hamilton?
MS. STERNHEIM: Ray Hamilton was a friend of yours; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: He's someone that you knew both in the states as well as in London; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You did not know him?
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes.
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you recall being on a flight where you ran into him traveling to Los Angeles or from Los Angeles?
MS. STERNHEIM: You have no recollection of running into the acquaintance you've known as Ray on a plane?
MS. STERNHEIM: But on a plane. I apologize if I got the destination wrong. Do you recall telling him that the Epstein matter had fallen into your lap?
MS. STERNHEIM: And do you recall having called him, fairly recently, giving him updates about how the case was going?
MS. STERNHEIM: That you were going to be writing a book?
MS. STERNHEIM: That you were hoping that a movie would be made?
MS. STERNHEIM: That it is your goal to get the money and move to Italy with your child?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. We'll move on?
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes, we can move on.
MS. STERNHEIM: So you knew that assisting the government, as you have, helped your claim against the Epstein Fund; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You did not know that?
MS. STERNHEIM: You're testifying here not as a victim; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: You applied to the Epstein Fund; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And that was based upon your claim that, when you were 17 years old, you had contact with Jeffrey Epstein; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you now that age was a particular factor in connection with the claim to the fund?
MS. STERNHEIM: You testified earlier that you were awarded three and a quarter million dollars; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And, obviously, your attorney, Mr. Edwards, got a fee out of that; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: But the rest was yours, tax free; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You have requested assistance by the government to obtain what's called a U visa?
MS. STERNHEIM: That's a special visa for people who claim to have been victims who assist the government; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you have begun the process of filling out the application; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You've never filled out an application?
MS. STERNHEIM: So if there is an application with your name on it, you don't know who filled that out?
MS. STERNHEIM: But it is your goal to try to get the U visa; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You do not want the U visa?
MS. STERNHEIM: May I have a moment, Judge?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, I'm handing up a copy of an exhibit that I'd like to show the government.
JUDGE NATHAN: Can you give it a trial mark for identification, please.
MS. STERNHEIM: It would be Defendant's K9, please. May I give one to the witness, Kate, please?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
BY MS. STERNHEIM:
MS. STERNHEIM: Kate, I'm going to ask you to take a look at the exhibit I gave you, which we are marking as K9. Do you recognize that?
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you recognize your true name on it?
MS. STERNHEIM: On page 2, which is in the flip side of page 1. I would direct you to the left-hand column.
MS. STERNHEIM: If you turn 1 of 6 over?
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you see it now?
MS. STERNHEIM: I'm going to ask you to look at the left-hand column.
MS. STERNHEIM: Near what may be 2A?
MS. STERNHEIM: Is that your true name?
MS. STERNHEIM: I'm going to ask you to review other parts of this. It indicates that certain questions have been answered.
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you at any point participate in the completion of a U visa application?
MS. STERNHEIM: Did you at any point participate in an application for a U visa?
MS. STERNHEIM: The document that is before you, K9, bears your true name; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you have any idea who would have put your name on this application?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Your Honor, I would ask that this be entered into evidence.
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Can I have a moment, please?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
BY MS. STERNHEIM:
MS. STERNHEIM: I think you testified earlier you had approximately 10 meetings with the government in preparation for your testimony here; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And toward the end of those meetings, meaning not the end of each meeting, but meaning the meetings closest to today, the issue of your immigration status was raised, wasn't it?
MS. STERNHEIM: And a request was made that the government look into helping you with a U visa?
MS. STERNHEIM: And at some point, if not today, but at least prior to today, it was your interest in getting a U visa; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Because at some point, your other visa will no longer survive; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: So the U visa would permit you to stay here; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: The exceptional visa just lasts forever?
KATE: No, but it's renewable and I have existed and I have stayed here in status on those visas for the period of time that I've been here. It's not problematic to renew them.
MS. STERNHEIM: And what is the exceptional circumstance that you use to renew your visa?
MS. STERNHEIM: And what is your extraordinary ability that you put forth in support of your visa?
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes.
KATE: The last one was related to music, but not actually songwriting or anything. It was coaching.
MS. STERNHEIM: So anyone --
MS. STERNHEIM: So anyone who can claim to be an unlicensed music coach would be eligible for that type of visa?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Prior to using music, what else did you use to indicate that you are exceptional?
KATE: I don't -- I'm not clear on what you're asking, what did I use to indicate that I was exceptional.
MS. STERNHEIM: What did you state was the basis of you being exceptional?
KATE: My -- the basis has always been music-related and it's evolved over time as my work has evolved.
MS. STERNHEIM: But other than you being an unlicensed music coach, you are not in the music business?
MS. STERNHEIM: Being a music coach or a music therapist, are you employed in the music industry?
MS. STERNHEIM: So you are employed in that capacity?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you are selfemployed; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: But a U visa would permit you to be in other areas than music; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And a U visa is not something that you can buy; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: It's something that you need the government to attest to the fact that you claim to be a victim; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: You have no idea?
MS. STERNHEIM: Just a moment. Nothing further. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Pomerantz.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, would this be a good time for a break?
JUDGE NATHAN: I guess it depends on how long you anticipate.
MS. POMERANTZ: I think we would go into the lunch break, your Honor, so I would request that we start after the lunch break.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, we'll take our lunch break. It's 12:45. We're going to shoot for 45 minutes to an hour. Thank you. Enjoy your break.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: The witness may step down for the lunch break.
(Witness excused)
JUDGE NATHAN: Everyone may be seated. Matters to take up, counsel?
MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government. Thank you, your Honor.
MS. STERNHEIM: Not at this time.
JUDGE NATHAN: We'll resume in 45 minutes. Let me know if there is anything we need to address, please. Thank you.
(Recess)
(Continued on next page) A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 1:35 P.M.
JUDGE NATHAN: Matters to take up?
JUDGE NATHAN: It's not. I'm not sure why.
MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. Regarding the 900 series, I just wanted to flag in advance for the Court I've conferred with Mr. Everdell. We had earlier discussed the range of exhibits that the Court had ruled on. There were some additional exhibits from the 900 series that weren't in dispute. And so I just want to flag for the Court that when I offer them, there will be additional numbers. I've conferred about the list with Mr. Everdell; I think we're in agreement on the scope of that, and that that's consistent with the Court's ruling. But I just wanted to flag that in advance.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: That's correct, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Great. Thank you.
MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, I have a couple of matters, if I might.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. STERNHEIM: I have requested and I would ask the Court to direct the government to disclose the origin of the U visa application that bears Kate's name. It was provided to us some time in the wee hours. I do not know its origin, but it certainly contains specific information regarding this witness. It may require us to call a witness, so I need to know from where it came. The other has to do with the emails. I'm not sure what the Court's preclusion of the introduction of the emails which actually constitute past recollection recorded of this witness to Mr. Epstein.
JUDGE NATHAN: Let's start with the -- what got marked -- remind me what the --
MS. STERNHEIM: I think it was K-9.
JUDGE NATHAN: 3513-062, pages 1 through 6, which got marked for identification as Defendant's K-9. The request is for the government to indicate the origin.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, on 3513-045, the notes say, at the end of the meeting, the witness's counsel provided a form and asked to discuss her visa status, and that is the form. And the index also indicates that that was the form provided on that date.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. That resolves that. And then the emails which were marked -- I'm sorry, remind me what they were marked as.
MS. STERNHEIM: I think they were marked as K-7.
JUDGE NATHAN: Defendant's K-7.
MS. STERNHEIM: Excuse me. I'm getting another -- K-8. I apologize.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Defendant's K-8. So just get my head back in it. Okay. Ms. Pomerantz?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I just have a moment.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
(Counsel conferred)
MS. POMERANTZ: If I could have just the 3500 number so that way -- because I don't believe I have the exhibit.
MS. STERNHEIM: 3513-019.
JUDGE NATHAN: I don't think I ever got a copy of it. It was on the screen.
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: If it's not in the binder, maybe you could hand up a copy, please.
MS. STERNHEIM: I can, Judge.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MS. STERNHEIM: I'm just showing the government.
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the recorded recollection rule provides an exception to the rule against hearsay. And the first prong refers to: On a matter that the witness once knew about, but now cannot recall well enough to testify fully and accurately. But the witness was able to testify fully about the issue, and she testified fully about the matter; and there was no, you know, inconsistency or prior inconsistent statement. It should not be admitted into evidence.
JUDGE NATHAN: My read on it at the time was that the only discrepancy was -- the implied discrepancy was whether pictures were actually sent, but the email doesn't go to that; so it seems to me that her testimony was what was reflected in the email. What am I missing?
MS. STERNHEIM: May I have just a moment?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may. And I suppose, to put a fine point on the question, as Ms. Pomerantz says, what is it that the witness could not recall well enough to testify fully and accurately?
MS. STERNHEIM: Your Honor, it's my understanding --
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm sorry, at the mic please.
MS. STERNHEIM: I apologize.
JUDGE NATHAN: That's okay.
MS. STERNHEIM: Past recollection recorded does not have to be inconsistent.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. That's not the question. So just a record that sub A is on a matter the witness once knew about, but now cannot recall well enough to testify fully and accurately. So what couldn't the witness testify fully and accurately about?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, at first she wasn't sure. And then when she saw it, she didn't deny it. But I think that it is a recording of her own email. There is no issue as to authenticity.
JUDGE NATHAN: It's not an authenticity objection; it's a hearsay objection. Again, I think her testimony would be described as she recalled it well enough to testify fully and accurately because it doesn't conflict with what's in here. So it's not the same analysis as prior inconsistent statement, but I think the initial question is what did she not testify to fully and accurately.
MS. STERNHEIM: I just think it is corroborative of her testimony and more reliable than just coming from the stand when it is her own written statement to the co-conspirator in this case.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, that's not responsive to the question. And also, as the Court has noted, it just doesn't meet the standard that's articulated under 5A in terms of the question is whether it's on a matter that the witness once knew about, but now cannot recall well enough to testify fully and accurately. And that's just not the case here, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, I would just say that it is not being offered for the truth; it's offered for the fact that she maintained contact with him at a time later than the matters in issue and, therefore, it has relevance.
JUDGE NATHAN: That's the truth, what you just said. It's being offered for the truth that she had contact.
MS. STERNHEIM: Well, that part is not hearsay. The content is hearsay. The fact of the contact itself is something else. That's my understanding of it.
JUDGE NATHAN: Well, okay. She said she emailed with him. If you want to redact the content and show that there were emails, I suppose that's another question. But if you're not -- you want the content, which is consistent with what she testified to.
MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, I want the dates.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. STERNHEIM: And that is not hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. So the dates then I would permit -- I'll hear the government's response to this, but with the content redacted.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I'd like to check the transcript, because I thought she had agreed to the dates. And so --
JUDGE NATHAN: She did.
MS. POMERANTZ: So this seems cumulative, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Well, I would permit it as cumulative if all we're doing is showing the jury that emails happened on these dates.
MS. POMERANTZ: I just want to make sure I understand, your Honor. Would all of the substance of the emails be redacted?
JUDGE NATHAN: That's the proposition.
MS. POMERANTZ: And what about the subject lines?
MS. STERNHEIM: The subject lines would not be -- well, the sender and recipient would not be hearsay. The date would not be hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: Right. But the subject line would be. Okay. So with the content and the subject matter redacted, I'll let the dates in. And who's emailing it would have to be sealed because it identifies the witness by her true identity.
MS. POMERANTZ: Okay, your Honor. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. So, Ms. Sternheim, your team will prepare a redacted -- I'm sorry, I lost the number, K -- what was the defendant's mark?
MS. STERNHEIM: K-8. And if I may just supplement the record for a moment.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sure.
MS. STERNHEIM: If it is not being offered for the truth, why can't it come in with a limiting instruction? Other things have been admitted during this trial with limiting instructions. I think that there is relevance to this.
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes.
MS. STERNHEIM: And it comports with testimony; therefore, there is relevance to it. And an instruction would cure the concerns of the government.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm going to continue with my ruling. Now I'm leaning towards cumulativeness, but I'll permit the dates and the emails for the reasons indicated with redaction of the content on 403 grounds. If you can prep a redacted version or, counsel, you could stipulate to the dates the emails were sent or the like, but you need to do this quickly because the jury is going to come back in. What else do we need to take up?
MS. STERNHEIM: That's all.
MS. POMERANTZ: Nothing from the government.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Can you sort out how you're going to get it in? Well, I suppose -- I mean, she's off of cross at this point. Figure it out and you can do it on recross, I suppose. I'll step down for two minutes.
(Recess)
JUDGE NATHAN: Counsel, ready to proceed?
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes.
MR. ROHRBACH: One matter --
JUDGE NATHAN: I can't hear you, Mr. Rohrbach.
MR. ROHRBACH: One matter to take up, your Honor, before the jury comes in. After conferring with the defense we just wanted to make sure we fully understood the Court's ruling this morning about one piece of the testimony related to the New York search. The government's understanding of the Court's ruling is that the government is not going to offer exhibits that depict either images of celebrities or images of nude or semi-nude people inside the house; but it is going to elicit testimony from the witness that she observed those two categories of images. We just want to make sure that both of those were consistent with -- both of those pieces of testimony would be consistent with the Court's ruling.
JUDGE NATHAN: You can ask the witness testimony about what she saw at the relevant time period. On the celebrity piece, I understood you to say you weren't moving in that exhibit; that is a desk with photos of Epstein with celebrities. Was that a misunderstanding?
MR. ROHRBACH: No, that is correct, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: I didn't rule on that, but your question is may you ask the witness about photos she saw?
MR. ROHRBACH: Yes. So my understanding is we're going to just ask at a relatively high level of generality, but both photos she saw and the nude artwork she observed.
JUDGE NATHAN: Is there an objection?
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I think --
JUDGE NATHAN: Microphone please.
MR. EVERDELL: Sorry, your Honor. I think it does defeat the purpose a bit of not admitting the exhibits just to have the agent testify about those very same --
JUDGE NATHAN: Are you talking about the agent?
MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, the agent who conducted the search.
JUDGE NATHAN: Oh, I misunderstood. No, you can't ask the agent unless -- for the same reason. Relevance has to be to the time period.
MR. ROHRBACH: That's fine, your Honor. We just wanted to make sure we understood.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you for clarifying, Mr. Everdell. I thought you meant the current witness.
MR. ROHRBACH: No, not the current witness.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. Okay. What else? Anything?
MS. POMERANTZ: Nothing from the government. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Bring in the witness, please. And we'll bring in the jury.
(Witness present)
JUDGE NATHAN: You may remove your mask. We'll have the jury in in a moment. Ms. Pomerantz, if you want to go to the podium and set up, you may.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. Just while we're waiting, just to flag, counsel, if you look at 911 and 913, it looks like there's photos that might need additional redaction.
(Jury present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you, members of the jury. I hope you had a pleasant lunch. We're going to pick up with the redirect examination of the witness identified as Kate. Ms. Pomerantz, when you're ready. And Kate, I remind you that you are under oath. Go ahead.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Good afternoon, Kate.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you just pull the microphone a little bit closer to you please?
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes. Thank you. Do you remember being asked questions on cross-examination about your immigration status?
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you explain to the jury what you expect will happen with your immigration status.
KATE: Yes. My plan is to file a renewal of my current existing O-1 visa a couple of months before the existing one expires, as I have done many previous times.
MS. POMERANTZ: Has the government promised you anything with respect to your immigration status?
MS. POMERANTZ: Have you coordinated your testimony with any other witnesses at this trial?
MS. POMERANTZ: Has anyone told you what to say at this trial?
MS. POMERANTZ: What are you here to do today?
KATE: Aside from the events that took place a long time that I'm referring to today, this is the hardest thing that I have ever had to do. And I am here because I don't think there is anything more important, especially now that I'm a parent, than demonstrating to her that I can stand up for myself and demonstrating that the truth is important.
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, you were asked on cross-examination about public statements that you made in your name. Do you recall that?
MS. POMERANTZ: You were asked on cross-examination about public statements you made in your name.
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you recall that?
MS. POMERANTZ: Was that hearing where you made those public statements about Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: Was that hearing where you made those public statements about Maxwell?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who was the hearing about?
MS. POMERANTZ: At that hearing, did you talk about all of your experiences?
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you go into detail about your experiences with Epstein during that hearing?
MS. POMERANTZ: Why not?
KATE: Because I did not want to disclose on a public level under my own name the details of the incidents that took place because I did not want my daughter to be exposed.
MS. POMERANTZ: That same day did you meet with the government for the first time?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who did you tell the government about?
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, do you remember the first time you saw Jeffrey Epstein naked?
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you remember who was standing next to you?
MS. POMERANTZ: Who was standing next to you?
MS. POMERANTZ: How old were you?
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you explain to the jury why you remember that so clearly?
MS. POMERANTZ: You were asked on cross-examination questions about your memories and your drug use, do you recall that?
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you explain to the jury why you remember what happened to you with Maxwell and Epstein when you were 17?
KATE: I remember what happened when I was 17 with Ghislaine and Jeffrey because those events come back to me all the time. I have nightmares about them.
MS. STERNHEIM: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Sustained. Next question.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. POMERANTZ: You were asked some questions on cross-examination about the awards you received from the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund. Do you remember that?
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you tell the jury what the money meant to you.
KATE: Yes. What the money meant to me was recognition of my pain; what it meant to me was that my truth was important --
MS. STERNHEIM: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. You may answer. A. It meant that I could continue to try to recover and to continue to try and help other people recover from these kinds of events.
MS. POMERANTZ: Kate, do you have any financial stake in the outcome of this trial?
MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor.
MS. STERNHEIM: Briefly.
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. STERNHEIM:
MS. STERNHEIM: You've been asked questions about your memory; correct?
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Sternheim, your mask.
MS. STERNHEIM: Oh, I forgot. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MS. STERNHEIM: Kate, you've been asked questions about your memory; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And you testified from your memory about an occasion where you were asked to put on a uniform; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And in connection with that interaction, you and Ghislaine spoke about St. Trinian's, do you recall?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. Beyond the scope.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: I don't understand the objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Beyond the scope of the redirect.
MS. STERNHEIM: Have you on other occasions wore costumes?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: You speak about the truth. It's your truth as you believe it to be; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Your experience and your experience alone; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: And experiences that you have discussed with other individuals who claim to have been abused by Epstein; correct?
MS. STERNHEIM: Experiences that you have discussed with your lawyer who represents other --
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
MS. STERNHEIM: -- victims?
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: You were at a meeting with the government where your immigration status was discussed, do you recall?
MS. STERNHEIM: And during that meeting, a form that was shown to you today, a U visa form, was handed to the government. Do you remember that?
MS. STERNHEIM: Do you remember that your lawyer, Mr. Edwards, was at that meeting?
MS. STERNHEIM: And do you recall that Mr. Edwards is the one who gave that form to the government?
MS. STERNHEIM: And do you recall that Mr. Edwards had consulted with you during that meeting concerning your U visa?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: And do you recall that it was at that meeting that a request was made for the government to look into your U visa?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. Asked and answered.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: So as you sit here now, you're just going to renew your visa based on exceptionalism and are not going forward with the U visa?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. Asked and answered.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. STERNHEIM: Your Honor, at this time I would move into evidence, with proper redactions being made, Exhibit K-8 and K-10. I have discussed this with the government. They will be appropriately redacted for later publication to the jury.
JUDGE NATHAN: Without objection?
MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Defendants's K-8 and K-10 with redactions will be admitted. I know K-8 is sealed. Is K-10 also sealed?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, they both should be under sealed.
JUDGE NATHAN: Both are sealed even with redactions because the unredacted material would identify the witness.
(Defendant's Exhibits K-8, K-10 received in evidence)
BY MS. STERNHEIM:
MS. STERNHEIM: Kate, in connection with your application to the fund, if it is determined that anything you stated on that application is not true, that could impact the money you received, isn't that a fact?
MS. STERNHEIM: Didn't the application specifically state that applications would be vetted for fraud?
MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you. No further questions.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Thank you, Kate. You may step down. You are excused. Thank you.
(Witness excused)
JUDGE NATHAN: The government may call its next witness.
JUDGE NATHAN: Patrick McHugh may come forward. PATRICK McHUGH, called as a witness by the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
JUDGE NATHAN: You may inquire.