Lawrence Visoski — Direct
280 linesDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Good afternoon.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Good afternoon, Ms. Comey.
MS. COMEY: Do you go by any nicknames?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: What nicknames?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Larry.
MS. COMEY: What kind of work do you do?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I am an airline transport pilot and a commercial instrument rated helicopter pilot.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to direct your attention to the period between 1991 and 2019. Who did you work for then?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I was employed by Mr. Jeffrey Epstein.
MS. COMEY: What was your job title?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I was captain during the initial part and then I also handled the aircraft maintenance scheduling.
MS. COMEY: In other words, were you a pilot?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I was a pilot, yes.
MS. COMEY: And what kind of planes did you pilot?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: We had several aircraft, Hawker Siddeley, Gulf Stream, Boeings.
MS. COMEY: Were those Mr. Epstein's private planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: About when were you first hired?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I believe I was hired July of 1991.
MS. COMEY: Where were you hired?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: In Columbus, Ohio.
MS. COMEY: Who hired you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Mr. Epstein.
MS. COMEY: How did you come to be hired by Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Actually, my current employment, while in Columbus, Ohio, they were selling the aircraft, and the flight department that was based right next to me at Columbus Airport, their chief pilot knew of an opportunity of Mr. Epstein purchasing aircraft, so I interviewed with Mr. Epstein.
MS. COMEY: And after the interview, were you hired?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I was.
MS. COMEY: Who else, if anyone, was hired at the same time you were?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Another pilot, David Rogers.
MS. COMEY: How did you know him?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: We were actually working together in the previous job. So we actually transferred together as a team.
MS. COMEY: How long did Mr. Rogers work for Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Same duration as myself.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, could we please pull up Government Exhibit 112 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: I'm sure showing you what's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 112. Do you recognize that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: Who is depicted in that exhibit?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's Mr. Jeffrey Epstein.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers Exhibit 112 in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Without objection, Government Exhibit 112 is received and may be published.
(Government's Exhibit 112 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you. I'd ask we please publish it, Ms. Drescher.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, about how old was Mr. Epstein when you first met him in 1991?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I believe he was 38 years old.
MS. COMEY: We can take that down. Thank you, Ms. Drescher.
MS. COMEY: What were your job responsibilities when you were first hired by Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: When I was first hired by Mr. Epstein, I was captain on the aircraft, as well as -- I mentioned I took care of the aircraft maintenance because I'm also a licensed aircraft mechanic. So I took care of the maintenance, as well, on the aircraft.
MS. COMEY: Did you also fly the planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I also flew the planes as captain, yes, ma'am.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to focus on the period between 1994 and 2004. During that 10-year period, about how often did you fly Mr. Epstein's private planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was pretty much every four days we were on the road flying somewhere.
MS. COMEY: Was there a set schedule during that period?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No set schedule.
MS. COMEY: During that same period, where did you fly to most often for Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: We mainly transported him between his homes. He had several locations. So we were pretty much on a regular -- not a regularly scheduled, but we flew Palm Beach, to New York, to St. Thomas, to Santa Fe, New Mexico, as well as Paris, France.
MS. COMEY: Again, focusing on the period between 1994 and 2004, who, if anyone, gave you notice of when Mr. Epstein's plane was going to depart?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It would have been several people. Number one, Mr. Epstein would call directly and notify, as well as Ms. Maxwell or any other secretary or assistant in the office that had information about an impending flight to give us heads up or give me heads up about a flight.
MS. COMEY: Who was Ms. Maxwell?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Ghislaine Maxwell was one of the assistants in the office for Mr. Epstein.
MS. COMEY: About when did you first meet Ms. Maxwell?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Probably was shortly after I got hired in July of '91. So it was later on in '91, to generalize it, we're going back a little ways, but it was late in '91.
MS. COMEY: What did Ms. Maxwell look like when you first met her?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She was approximately five-foot-eight, dark hair color, and she has a British accent.
MS. COMEY: About how old was Ms. Maxwell when you met her in 1991?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She was 30 years old.
MS. COMEY: About how often did you interact with Ms. Maxwell during your time working for Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: We interacted quite often, interacted. She was mostly on a lot of the flights. She would also assist with scheduling. So we'd interacted quite often.
MS. COMEY: At some point during your employment with Mr. Epstein, did you notice that Ms. Maxwell was spending less time flying on Mr. Epstein's planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: About when was that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was more in the mid 2000s, 2004-5ish.
MS. COMEY: Between the period when you met Ms. Maxwell in 1991 and when she was less frequently on flights in about 2004 or 2005, how, if at all, did Ms. Maxwell's hairstyle change?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It changed frequently like most females. It changed with the hairstyle of the time. So it was short and sometimes long.
MS. COMEY: Would you recognize Ms. Maxwell if you saw her again today?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Looking around the courtroom here today, do you see her?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: Would you please point her out and identify an article of clothing she's wearing?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Ms. Maxwell is over in the far corner with the white sweater on and the dark hair.
MS. COMEY: Would the record please reflect, your Honor, that the witness has identified the defendant.
JUDGE NATHAN: Without objection, it so reflects. Thank you.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, could we please pull up Government Exhibit 115.
MS. COMEY: Would you please take a look at this exhibit, Mr. Visoski, and tell us if you recognize it.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Who is depicted in this exhibit?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is Ghislaine Maxwell.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this exhibit in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Without objection, Government Exhibit 115 is admitted and you may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 115 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. Ms. Drescher I'd ask we please publish this exhibit. And now I'd like to turn to Government Exhibit 111, please, just for the witness, Ms. Drescher, and the parties and the Court.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Do you recognize the person in this exhibit?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: Who is that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is also Ms. Ghislaine Maxwell.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this exhibit in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Without objection, Government Exhibit 111 is admitted. You may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 111 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you. Ms. Drescher, I'd ask that we please publish this. And we can take that down. Thank you, Ms. Drescher.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, you mentioned that Ms. Maxwell worked for Mr. Epstein between approximately 1994 and 2004. Based on your observations of Ms. Maxwell, what was her role as an employee for Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She managed the households. She was involved, to my knowledge, in decorating, hiring household staff. During that time period, Mr. Epstein was quite -- was acquiring quite a lot of residences and quite large residences. So it took a lot to undertake of managing and hiring and decorating, et cetera.
MS. COMEY: Focusing on the period between 1994 and 2004, how would Ms. Maxwell, Mr. Epstein, or another assistant let you know about an upcoming flight for one of Mr. Epstein's planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Since you're going back so far in the '94s, I believe that was before cellphones even. So when I first got hired, we were issued pagers, and at that point, the office would page us and we would call in for the message. Then I guess later on in the '90s when cellphones came to be, we were issued cellphones or I was issued a cellphone.
MS. COMEY: During that same period between 1994 and 2004, how much notice would you typically receive before a flight on one of Mr. Epstein's planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was typically short notice. It could be a day notice. Probably -- a day notice at least, sometimes shorter notice, but it was -- it was short notice.
MS. COMEY: Again, focusing on that same period between 1994 and 2004, based on your observations of Ms. Maxwell and Mr. Epstein, did they appear to have a personal relationship?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: From what I could see, I thought it was more personal than business, yes.
MS. COMEY: What did you observe, for example, that gave you that impression?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I guess it's the way you would talk to another person if you were closer. It was more of a smalltalk as far as thinking that they were together as opposed to, you know, boss or not. But it was just a conversation that I saw, really.
MS. COMEY: About how long did that romantic relationship last from what you observed?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It probably went to the 2000s. Yeah, about the 2000s. I wouldn't even categorize romantic, but more couplish than anything else. I don't think I ever witnessed them kiss or hold hands kind of thing.
MS. COMEY: To your knowledge, did Mr. Epstein only fly by private plane between 1994 and 2004?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Mostly private -- the private jet. The only time that he would take the airlines was when the Concorde was flying. And typically, he would take a Concorde from New York to Paris, but otherwise anytime else, it was mostly private.
MS. COMEY: How about Ms. Maxwell, during that same period, to your knowledge, did she only fly on Mr. Epstein's private planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She flew on the private planes. And if memory serves, she did ride the airlines, as well. And then, it was probably in the late 1990s, she also had an option on a quarter share or a private -- or a quarter ownership of a private jet, as well. They call it a quarter share.
MS. COMEY: What did Ms. Maxwell tell you about that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That it was her jet, which, in fact, it was, because she was partial owner of the jet and she had access to it with notice.
MS. COMEY: Could you explain the difference between flying on a private plane and flying commercially.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Well, the best advantage is you leave when you want. Otherwise, flying privately, security is much less. You don't have TSA, you don't have x-rays, you come and go as you please, pretty much. Some airports even let you drive your car directly onto the ramp next to the aircraft and unload. So it's a lot more freedom flying private.
MS. COMEY: Typically, what, if any, interactions did you have with passengers on Mr. Epstein's private planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: My interaction would be mostly when they either boarded or exited the airplane. I would assist with loading luggage. So my interaction was brief. Most of my duties were obviously up in the cockpit.
MS. COMEY: How, if at all, did you learn the names of passengers on a particular flight on one of Mr. Epstein's planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was mainly not a priority to get a name, but we would try to be as accurate as we could. We would -- Mr. Epstein, Ms. Maxwell, or even any of these secretaries at the office would say, you know, so many people are going on the aircraft. It wasn't as much important as a pilot knowing that how many people were going as opposed to specifying the name if it was a domestic flight. If it was an international flight, I would need their names, et cetera.
MS. COMEY: Did you learn the name of every single passenger who flew on Mr. Epstein's planes?
MS. COMEY: Why not?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Like I said, it wasn't a priority. I tried to get their names. Typically, it was usually the same people that flew, so I recognized their names with the first introduction. But it just -- it wasn't convenient to get it. That wasn't my job to jot down every person that flew on the aircraft.
MS. COMEY: What, if any, of Mr. Epstein's residences did you visit during your employment with him?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I'm sorry. You said which residence?
MS. COMEY: Which residences did you visit, yes.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: All of them.
MS. COMEY: Would you please list the ones that you remember.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I would start in New York. He has a townhouse in New York -- Manhattan, Palm Beach, Florida, and then a ranch in Santa Fe, New -- or just south of Santa Fe, New Mexico. Actually Stanley, New Mexico. And actually an apartment in Paris. And then he also acquired an island in St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands, and then later on purchased a second island that adjoined, that's next door to the island in St. Thomas. I think I covered them all.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to walk through each of those, please. Starting with Palm Beach, about when do you remember first visiting Mr. Epstein's Palm Beach residence?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That would have been actually on my first trip with Mr. Epstein. So that would have been 1991.
MS. COMEY: And in what state is Palm Beach located?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is Palm Beach, Florida.
MS. COMEY: About how often did you visit the Palm Beach residence during your employment with Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I would visit the residence -- it would seem almost on every trip. I would either -- there has been occasion where I'd either go pick up luggage, drop off excess luggage. And there is other occasion that I've actually done some audio/video work at the home.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to pull up, Ms. Drescher, please, what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 202.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize this?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: What is it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is the garage of the Palm Beach house that Mr. Epstein owns.
MS. COMEY: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of a portion of the exterior of Jeffrey Epstein's Palm Beach residence?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it is.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this exhibit in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government Exhibit 202 is admitted. You may publish it.
(Government's Exhibit 202 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you. Ms. Drescher, could we please publish that. I want to turn now please, Ms. Drescher, to Government Exhibit 212.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize this?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: What is it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is the pool area of Mr. Epstein's Palm Beach house.
MS. COMEY: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of another portion of the exterior of Mr. Epstein's Palm Beach residence?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it is.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government Exhibit 212 is admitted is and you may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 212 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. Ms. Drescher, may you please publish this for the jury.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, could you please describe the interior of Mr. Epstein's Palm Beach residence.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes. If we start at the front door, you walk into the front door, there is an entrance courtyard area. Once you're inside the house, there is just obviously a large waiting area. I guess it's easy, the first day, if you just walk to your left, there is a half of staircase or half a circle staircase that leads you to the upstairs bedrooms. Once you get upstairs, you walk straight down the hallway, there is a master bedroom located at the end of that hallway. And then to the left, if you -- once you got up to the top of the staircase, there is approximately three guest bedrooms. Now we're back downstairs at the entrance door. If you continue to walk straight ahead from the front entrance door, it led you into a Florida room, which, in New York, you would call a family room, but it was a Florida room. Once you came back from the Florida room from the entrance door and made a left turn, that brought you into the kitchen that had a -- obviously a Butler's pantry, which is a large area to store excess kitchenware. And then the kitchen -- and then the kitchen led out to the three-car garage, as you saw in the photo. Then we walk back into the entranceway by the main door and you take the right turn. That took you to the living room, which also led out to the back patio pool area that you saw in the photo. Once you got to the pool area, then you made a left turn, there was a pool cabana that had Mr. Epstein's gym and his personal office inside there.
MS. COMEY: How many structures were on Mr. Epstein's Palm Beach property?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: There was actually three structures. If I went back to the kitchen and walked out the garage, once you got out the garage, later on, it was probably in the 2000s, so long ago that he built a structure that would actually house the Butler and the household staff that was actually separated. So, to answer your question, there was three structures on the property.
MS. COMEY: And those were the cabana, the main house, and the house for the staff?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MS. COMEY: When you picked up luggage for Mr. Epstein at the Palm Beach residence, what airport did you then take it to?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: When we flew to Mr. Epstein's house in Palm Beach, we just used the West Palm Beach International Airport.
MS. COMEY: Between 1994 and 2004 when you were flying out of the Palm Beach International Airport, how did the passengers get to Mr. Epstein's plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: At the West Palm Beach airport, passengers are allowed to drive their vehicles right up to the aircraft and exit. They would pull up to the security gate and actually tell them the aircraft number. And then, at that time, the gate would open and the driver would be able to drive the car directly to the aircraft entrance front door.
MS. COMEY: As the pilot on the plane, were you able to see the car with the passengers pull up to the plane before a flight?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I could see the driver and perhaps maybe the passenger. 99 percent of cars in Florida have tinted windows, so I probably couldn't see the passengers as well, but depending upon how the car approached the aircraft, if I'm sitting in the cockpit looking down, I would be able to see the driver of the car.
MS. COMEY: During that same period between 1994 and 2004, who do you remember that you saw driving passengers up to Mr. Epstein's plane in Palm Beach?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: There were probably several. Typically, it was the house manager at the time that would drive Mr. Epstein to the airplane. One name comes to mind would be Juan Alessi, and another would have been one of the house managers, Janusz. There were probably a couple more that I'm just drawing a blank on their names right now.
MS. COMEY: That's fine. Now switching gears to New York, about when do you remember first visiting Mr. Epstein's New York residence?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Well, he first had a home on 69th Street, so it was in 1991 that I went to his very first residence, and then it was probably a year or maybe two years later on that he had purchased a different townhouse or brownstone, they call it, I guess, on 71st Street. So it was immediately with my employment I visited the home.
MS. COMEY: Thank you. I'd like to go back to something you said earlier about the Palm Beach airport. You referenced a house manager as a driver. What is a house manager?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: A house manager would be in charge of all the mechanical at the house. Could go as far as grocery shopping. It's anything involved with the house. Scheduling maintenance, lawn care. If there was a water leak, he would call the plumber. He was in charge of the home.
MS. COMEY: And who were the two house managers you remember driving passengers to Mr. Epstein's plane in Palm Beach between 1994 and 2004?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The first one that comes to mind is Juan Alessi. And then I know there was Janusz, also worked at the house, but I don't remember the timeframe that Janusz was there.
MS. COMEY: Thank you. Going back to New York, I'd like to focus on the second residence you mentioned. What borough was that residence in?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That was Manhattan.
MS. COMEY: And what was the address of that residence?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was 9 East 71st Street.
MS. COMEY: About how often did you visit that 9 East 71st Street residence during your employment with Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was pretty much every trip that we had to Manhattan or New York.
MS. COMEY: For what purpose did you go to that residence?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Typically, it was to drop off or pick up luggage before a flight. It certainly saves time for the passengers. So that was the whole idea of picking up luggage early. And then I also set up audio/video equipment at that residence.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, could we please pull up Government Exhibit 932 and then Government Exhibit 704 and show both of those to the witness.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize these exhibits?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: What is depicted in both of these?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is Mr. Epstein's brownstone at 9 East 71st Street.
MS. COMEY: Are these both fair and accurate depictions of the exterior of Mr. Epstein's New York residence?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, they are.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers these exhibits in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: GX 932 and 704 are admitted and you may publish.
(Government's Exhibits 932, 704 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. Ms. Drescher, if we can please publish.
MS. COMEY: While these are up, Mr. Visoski, would you please describe the interior of this residence.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes. As you --
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Does the jury see the photo, also?
JUDGE NATHAN: They do. A. As you can see the large front door with the light there, as soon as you enter that -- it probably has to be a 15-foot door. As soon as you walk in that entrance door, there is some steps that you walk up. Once you get up to the top of the foyer, if you made a left turn, there is a room which is actually round, what they call a rotunda. There is a round room that housed -- it would be like a secretary's desk inside there in a type of library, small library. And then, when you went back into the middle of the hall and went, continued across to the right, there was a security room in there which housed all the TV monitors that monitored all the outside activity of the house. Then, once you went back into the foyer and continued straight ahead and to the main lobby of the home, there was a spiral staircase that wrapped around, which was probably a four-story -- because that home was approximately seven stories, I believe.
Then once you're in the foyer, the spiral staircase spiraled around and brought you up to the different levels. So we're still staying on the first floor. Once you continued straight ahead, that brought you into a large living room on the first floor. And then to the right side of that living room, there were a there was a smaller, normalize-size kitchen. Then there was a dumbwaiter that actually went down to the basement to a chef's professional kitchen so food could be prepared in the basement and shipped upstairs. Then you continued back to the center and we go up the stairs, the second floor was pretty much a living room, to my knowledge, if I remember correctly. There was really the main -- the floor was a living room. And then once you went to the second and third floor, you got into the master bedroom, guest bedrooms, as well. And then it wasn't until you got to the -- I believe the sixth floor -- which was where the home theater was that I set up. So he had a home theater on the sixth floor, and I believe that also had the residence -- it was either -- it could have been the sixth floor, as far as the butler's residence, as well, for them to stay.
MS. COMEY: When Mr. Epstein was staying at this New York residence, what airport did you typically fly into?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It depended upon what aircraft we were flying. At the time, in general, between the timeframe you're talking -- was this between '94 and --
MS. COMEY: Yes. Thank you for clarifying. Between 1994 and 2004.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: If it was between '94 and 2000, we would operate out of Teterboro Airport. But if it was 2000 to 2004, Mr. Epstein had purchased a Boeing 727, which is a large airliner, and we weren't allowed to fly that aircraft due to weight into Teterboro, so we would operate out of Newark or JFK Airport with that plane.
MS. COMEY: What, if any, office did Mr. Epstein have in New York City that you visited between 1994 and 2004?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: He had an office on Madison Avenue and 51st Street.
MS. COMEY: And what borough is that located?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is also Manhattan.
MS. COMEY: About how often did you go to that office between 1994 and 2004?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Probably once a week or -- I shouldn't say once a week. Once a New York visit at least.
MS. COMEY: How often approximately were you in New York during that decade?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Probably once a week.
MS. COMEY: Why did you go to that office?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Mainly when I turned in my expense report. I also would speak with other employees about upcoming trips and trying to gather information about our future travel. But it was mainly to get my expense check.
MS. COMEY: Would you describe that office, please.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was located on the 4th floor of an office -- not even an office building. It was the 4th floor. Once you got out of the elevator, it was a receptionist desk. It was a smaller office. It was a narrow, narrow entranceway. So the receptionist had a desk right there. Then, if you continued straight ahead from the elevator, there was a room that had approximately one, two -- four or five desks that had pretty much the accounting department and some of other Mr. Epstein's investment personnel that watched investments and such. It was no divisions, it was just an open room with desks. Then you came out of that room, went past the receptionist, then there was another room in the middle of the hallway which had two desks in it, I believe, or maybe one large desk, and that was pretty much Mr. Epstein's attorney's office. Then, once we came out of that and we continued down the same hallway where the reception was to the end, right at the end of that was Mr. Epstein's main secretary's desk. Then once you're at the end of that hallway to the left of her desk was Mr. Epstein's main office, which was quite a large office. Once we left Mr. Epstein's office, you're back at the secretary's desk and you continued to the other side of the room. There was another large room that had one, two, three -- another five -- five desks. That is -- that was more of the personal assistant's room where they had a place to sit and work.
MS. COMEY: Who do you remember having a desk in that personal assistant room?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: There were several people that had desks that I remember there. I know Ms. Maxwell had a desk there. Sarah Kellen had a desk there. There was another personal assistant, I believe, Kimberly. I don't quite remember her last name. But there were several personal assistants that housed -- that kind of had base of operation in that room.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Comey, it's 4:59, so I'm going to stop you here for the evening. Members of the jury, we're going to break for the evening. A few things to go over. I know you asked Ms. Williams about the schedule. As I indicated during the jury selection process, we do anticipate sitting each day. We're going to start promptly with you at 9:30 in the morning, so I ask you to arrive between 9:00 and 9:15. Earlier will be fine. Ms. Williams will have the jury room open for you, we'll have some breakfast items and snacks. Please come by 9:00 to 9:15 or earlier so we can start promptly at 9:30 and we'll sit to 5:00 again and that's our standard schedule. I know you asked about the holiday schedule. The current plan, as I indicated during jury selection, is that the week of Christmas, we'll sit Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. So that's the 20th, 21st, and 22nd of December, and the week of New Year's we'll sit Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, the 27th, 28th, and 29th of December. That's the schedule. If I'm aware of any adjustments to the schedule, I'll let you know as soon as I know. I'm going to send you home asking you to please bear in mind all of my instructions to you. They're critically important. I appreciate your time and your patience and your attention and your diligence, and I look forward to seeing you tomorrow morning, and Ms. Williams will show you out. Thank you so much.
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(Jury not present)
(In open court)
JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Visoski, you may step down. We are through with you for the evening. We will see you in the morning. Everyone may be seated.
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JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Matters to take up, counsel?
MS. COMEY: Not from the government, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: No, your Honor, unless you want to talk about the cross choreography.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sure. That's a good idea. So you will have binders --
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: -- that will be placed under the jurors' chairs.
MR. EVERDELL: Let me be clear, your Honor. We will have a binder for the witness; although we are going to try to use the electronics, but we'll have a binder just in case for the witness.
JUDGE NATHAN: Right.
MR. EVERDELL: And we have manila folders this big, which is two documents in them, each one page, for each of the jurors. And there will come a point where I will ask the jurors to look at these; but I think, similar to what we did with the government binders, if we can leave them there and instruct the jurors not to look at them. And then when I use them, I will show copies to the government before they open them up to make sure everything is okay. And then we can have them open it up if and when the Court approves that.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. And so you'll show the paper copies to the government.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll see and Ms. Williams will see the electronic version.
MR. EVERDELL: And the witness will too, yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: And the witness. Right. And then if permitted to display what you're showing, you'll use the electronic version with a careful description of exactly what page you're showing. And to the extent you're highlighting or pointing to any passage, you'll make that clear so that the government can follow along. And obviously if it is something that you've moved into evidence, it will be published to everyone, unless there's a redaction issue around identity.
MR. EVERDELL: I am going to ask to move it into evidence; but they are full names of real people, so they will have to be fully redacted. The exhibit itself is just the name of a person who is testifying either under a pseudonym or a first name. It's the full name.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. So that is a sealed item entirely. So that won't be shown to the public.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: And therefore, can't be on the screens. But the government will have the paper and the rest -- and I'll see and the witness will see the electronic version.
MR. EVERDELL: Correct. And we will even just have the jurors look at them in paper, because I know these jurors over here, their screens may face the gallery. So they can just look at them with the folder so nothing is facing the gallery.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. So the plan is not to put it on the juror screens at all.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm sorry, your Honor, I think I just thought of that, because of the way those jurors are facing. So I think the better way to do this, at least for publishing it to the jury, is to use the folders so that the documents cannot be seen by anybody in the gallery.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. And the reason we're not just doing it on paper is because -- for at least for this witness is why?
MR. EVERDELL: It is actually, for the large portion of things we want to show, like 3500 material or other things, a lot easier to show it electronically, a lot faster, I think, than having a witness tab through a large binder. We can go right to the page. If the witness needs other pages, we can cue those up at request. So I think it will actually promote efficiency to use the electronics with these particular exhibits. Because there are names of anonymized witnesses, we have to go through this extra bit of choreography. That's it, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Comey?
MS. COMEY: I'll just note, your Honor, that we will have papers, so we will have to tab through the binder ourselves; so there may be delays on our end. But that process is fine with us, if that's how the defense would like to proceed.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Look, if it's just a single piece of paper, for example, with a name, let's just use the paper.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: And otherwise, as I said, we'll try it this way. It sounds like there may be efficiencies, there may not be, but we'll try it just with the caution that I have granted anonymity. And so given the layout of the room, I don't want the -- although the names of the witnesses will be known to the jurors, they should not be published to the courtroom.
MR. EVERDELL: We'll try and be very mindful of this, your Honor. That's why we are trying to think through this carefully. Before the cross starts, I'll put the paper binder in the witness box for the witness in case paper has to be used, even though that's a backup option. And I will put the manila folders under the jurors' chairs and they will be instructed not to look at them until the time is appropriate.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. And so the government has binders -- are you going to collect those binders for the evening?
MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: And then you'll put them back there in the morning.
MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: And I'm not sure if we'll get -- if we'll do a break -- so it sounds like the defense should put the folders underneath in the morning as well, in case we get to cross before the break. Is that okay with everyone?
MS. COMEY: That's fine, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: That's fine, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Great. Other matters to take up in the immediate --
MS. COMEY: No, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: Not from the defense.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. We'll meet at 8:45 just to discuss issues as we need to. Please think through issues that may come up that require discussion out of the presence of the jury. It was disappointing to have multiple sidebars during openings today. And I encourage all of us to do what we can to avoid that by thinking through and raising issues in advance, okay?
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Good. All right. Thank you. Have a good evening, everyone. I'll see you in the morning.
(Adjourned to November 30, 2021 at 8:45 a.m.)