Eva Andersson Dubin — Direct/Cross
551 linesDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PAGLIUCA:
MR. PAGLIUCA: Good morning. Is it Dr. Dubin?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Dr. Dubin, where do you live, not the address, but just generally.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I live in New York City.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you. And how old are you, Dr. Dubin?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I'm 60.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And I take it you are married by your description of your last name?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And what is your husband's name?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Glenn Dubin.
MR. PAGLIUCA: How long have you been married to Glenn Dubin?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: 28 years.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And do you and Mr. Dubin have any children?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, we do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: How many children do you have?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: We have three children.
MR. PAGLIUCA: What are the ages of your children, starting with the oldest?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: 27, 25, and 20. They are all about to be 21, 26, and 28.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I see. They're about to have their next birthdays?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Correct.
MR. PAGLIUCA: It took a second to process that. I'm not going to ask you their names, but what are their genders, starting with the 25, almost going to be 28?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Female.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm sorry. 27, almost going to be 28. Female. 25, almost going to be 26?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Male.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And 20, almost going to be 21?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Female.
MR. PAGLIUCA: So two girls and a boy?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Right.
MR. PAGLIUCA: What does Mr. Dubin do for employment?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: He is selfemployed.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And is he in the financial industry?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Correct.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And are you employed as a medical doctor?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I am not.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Were you employed as a medical doctor?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I was.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And when you were employed as a medical doctor, what, generally, did you do?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I was an internist.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And were you or are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of New York?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I am.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Just briefly, where did you attend medical school?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I attended medical school at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm for three and a half years, and then UCLA medical school.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And did you graduate from UCLA medical school?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I did.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Did you complete a residency for internal medicine?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I did.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And where did you complete your residency for internal medicine?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: In Lennox Hill Hospital.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Here in New York?
MR. PAGLIUCA: I want to ask you some questions about a man named Jeffrey Epstein. Did you know Mr. Epstein?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I did.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And how did you know Mr. Epstein?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: We dated off and on from the start of 1983.
MR. PAGLIUCA: So 1983 until approximately when did you date Mr. Epstein off and on?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Approximately 1990, 1991.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And after you stopped dating Mr. Epstein in approximately 1990 or 1991, did you and Mr. Epstein remain friends?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, we did.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And after you stopped dating Mr. Epstein, did you have regular contact with Mr. Epstein on a friend basis?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, we did.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Both when you were dating Mr. Epstein and after you were dating Mr. Epstein, did you travel on airplanes, either owned or controlled by Mr. Epstein?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I did.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Did you sometimes travel with Mr. Epstein himself?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, and my family.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And did you sometimes travel without Mr. Epstein on the plane, but with other people?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I cannot recall if I traveled without Mr. Epstein on the flight.
MR. PAGLIUCA: When you traveled with Mr. Epstein, do you recall traveling with other adults, as well?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: There were other adults, as well. I don't recall --
MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. And I'm not asking for names. I'm just asking generally, do you recall traveling with Mr. Epstein on his planes with other adults?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I did.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And I think you said that sometimes you and your family would travel with Mr. Epstein on Mr. Epstein's planes; is that right?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: That's correct.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I take it traveling and being around Mr. Epstein after you stopped dating him -- let me back up. When did you and Mr. Dubin get married?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: We got married at 1994 on my birthday.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And after 1994, did you and Mr. Dubin continue to be friendly with Mr. Epstein and travel with Mr. Epstein?
MR. PAGLIUCA: After you had children with Mr. Dubin, did Mr. Epstein get to know your children?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, he did.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And were you and Mr. Dubin comfortable with the relationship between Mr. Epstein and your children?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, we were.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Did it appear to you that Mr. Epstein was fond of your children?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, he was.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And did it appear to you that your children were fond of Mr. Epstein?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, they were.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Would you describe the relationship between your children and Mr. Epstein as an uncle-like relationship?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I would.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Did they have a nickname for Mr. Epstein?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes. They called him Uncle F.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Uncle F, as in Frank, but short for Jeff; is that correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: During the time that you dated Mr. Epstein, so '83 through '91 I think roughly is what you said, did you observe any inappropriate conduct between Mr. Epstein and any teenage females?
MR. PAGLIUCA: What's the basis for the objection, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a minute. Grounds.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Continued on next page)
(At the sidebar)
MS. MOE: Thank you. Your Honor, this is an issue I believe we raised in advance of trial about the relevance of asking witnesses about uncharged conduct and whether the defendant or Epstein committed crimes in other instances that are not charged. I think the foundation here is about the entirety of a very broad relationship between, I think, the 1980s and the present, and the question is whether, over several decades, she was aware of any kind of inappropriate conduct with other people. It's extraordinarily broad. And as we briefed in advance of trial, there is no relevance, it's inappropriate to suggest that there are uncharged conduct on other occasions is probative of what happened with the particular individuals at issue in this case. So we think this line of questioning is inappropriate. I would also note, your Honor, as we briefed in advance of this witness's testimony, we don't believe there is a foundation to suggest that this person was in the room with Jane. We think our notes on this are clear, that Jane has expressly said that this person was not involved in sexualized massages. So we think that questions that are designed to impeach and the misimpression that defense counsel has created are inappropriate. And for those reasons, we would object.
JUDGE NATHAN: So the specific objection is to other than what I allowed in overruling your motion to preclude is timeframed. So you want the timeframe narrowed to the window in which the witness testified that there was sexualized massages with --
MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor, and limited to particular individuals who are at issue in this case. It's not before the jury whether Maxwell and Epstein committed misconduct with other people, the question is whether she has relevant knowledge about misconduct with the people who are at issue in this case. The absence of misconduct with other people who are not at issue in this case is not relevant.
JUDGE NATHAN: I think you should narrow the timeframe in which the witness testifies.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I can do that, your Honor. Just so the record is clear, I don't believe this was litigated at all pretrial. This witness was not questioned about Ms. Maxwell or not being there, which were litigated pretrial. This really is foundational to the next question, which is going to be after she stopped dating him, which is then into the relevant timeframe, did she see any of this activity, any of which she considered to be inappropriate activity. So that's actually the next question. So I'm moving out of this into that. But it seems to me to be logically relevant, your Honor, frankly because if she had seen any of that activity, I doubt she would have been dating him or would be on his planes, et cetera. So it is foundational for her knowledge about Mr. Epstein, about why she was with Mr. Epstein during the relevant timeframe, why her children are with Mr. Epstein during the relevant timeframe.
JUDGE NATHAN: You've already established she was comfortable with the children. So I think you have -- you'll move on.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, I am.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll sustain on the current question and then move on.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court)
JUDGE NATHAN: Go ahead, Mr. Pagliuca.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. PAGLIUCA:
MR. PAGLIUCA: Dr. Dubin, so after you stopped dating Mr. Epstein, and let's focus on roughly 1994 through, let's say, 2004, did you observe any inappropriate conduct between Mr. Epstein and any teenage females?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I did not.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd like to show you some pictures that have been admitted under seal. So we just need to show those to the witness, the Court, and I will tell the government which exhibits those are. I'm happy to show them to the government.
JUDGE NATHAN: Can you give the trial mark and yes, for the Court and the witness.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. So the first exhibit is Government Exhibit 241, which I believe has been admitted under seal previously.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Thank you.
MR. PAGLIUCA: So this will be for the Court and the witness. And do we have that up, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: We do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: If I could ask Ms. Lundberg to expand Government Exhibit 241, the photograph that is closest to the foreground in the picture.
BY MR. PAGLIUCA:
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you see that, Dr. Dubin?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you recognize anyone in that expanded part of exhibit 241?
MS. MOE: I'm sorry, your Honor, the question is without saying that person's name. I just wanted to make sure that was clear.
MR. PAGLIUCA: The question was very simple. Do you recognize anyone?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. Do you recognize one or two people in that photograph?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Two people.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And without saying -- well, is one of the people Mr. Epstein?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: That's correct.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And without saying the name of the other person, is the other person one of your children?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And in terms of the age range, do you recall whether this is your now 27, 25, or 20?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: The 20.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm assuming you were aware that Mr. Epstein had this picture?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I have never seen this picture before.
MR. PAGLIUCA: If we could now show the witness Government Exhibit 248, please. This is just for the witness and the Court. If we could expand the photograph that's in the center of that bookcase.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Again, Dr. Dubin, do you recognize two people in that photograph?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And is one of those people Mr. Epstein?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Correct.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And is one of those people one of your children?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Correct.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And is that the same child or a different child that we saw in the other photograph?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Different child.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And order age, which child is this?
MR. PAGLIUCA: So this is your oldest child in this photograph; is that right?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Correct.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And do you have any sense of when this photograph might have been taken?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I have never seen this photo before.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Then if we can look at Government Exhibit 249, please. Again, this is under seal and just for the witness.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I don't know if you need that expanded or not, Dr. Dubin, but we can if you need it expanded.
JUDGE NATHAN: If they can make it a little larger.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Certainly, your Honor.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you recognize that person, without saying the name, Dr. Dubin?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do not.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you. We can take that down.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Possible to have some water?
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes. I'm sorry.
MR. PAGLIUCA: May I approach, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Thank you.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Let me know when you're ready, Dr. Dubin.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I'm ready.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you.
BY MR. PAGLIUCA:
MR. PAGLIUCA: Dr. Dubin, earlier we discussed traveling on Mr. Epstein's airplanes. I want to talk about some, what have been admitted as flight records with you. First of all, prior to coming to court today, have you ever seen any documents that are supposed to be flight records of Mr. Epstein's plane flights?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I have, yes.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And do you recall seeing those records in media publications?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And when you saw those records in the media publications, did you believe whatever you saw in the media to be accurate or inaccurate?
JUDGE NATHAN: Please.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Did you read whatever you saw in the media that purported to be the flight records?
MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm not sure what the objection is, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: The flight records you're referring to, what exactly, timeframe, quantity?
MR. PAGLIUCA: I think it's --
JUDGE NATHAN: If you could add specificity, then we'll see from there.
BY MR. PAGLIUCA:
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you recall what you saw in the media when you looked at what looked like flight records in the media?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I don't really recall exactly what I saw. I saw my name and flights.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you recall when you saw these in the media?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I can't recall.
MR. PAGLIUCA: When you read what you believed to be flight records in the media, did anything strike you as being inaccurate in what was being published from your memory?
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll permit response to this question. So when you read what you believed to be flight records in the media, did anything strike you as being inaccurate?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I saw that the media had copied the flight book incorrectly.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. What did you believe was incorrect in what the media had copied incorrectly?
MS. MOE: Your Honor, we'd object. There is evidence in the record that he can ask the witness about. I'm not sure what we're talking about even at this point.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I can discuss this at sidebar if you want, your Honor. I think it's relevant.
JUDGE NATHAN: We'll give the jury their morning break and we'll discuss it. Members of the jury, we'll take a 15-minute break.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: You may step down, Dr. Dubin.
(Witness excused) Go ahead, Ms. Moe.
MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. So as the Court is aware, there are flight records in evidence. We would certainly have no objection to Mr. Pagliuca asking this witness whether she recognizes them, whether they're accurate, the like, that is entirely appropriate, but I think it's very confusing to ask about what her memory is of what she saw in the media and whether that's accurate. I think there is no way for the jury to tell what witness we're talking about, whether it's the items in evidence -- I think the proper way to do this is to show the witness the flight records and ask whether they're accurate or not. If we're talking about things that are not in evidence and whether things that are not in evidence are accurate, I don't see the relevance of it, and that, of course, wouldn't be appropriate.
JUDGE NATHAN: What is the relevance, Mr. Pagliuca?
MR. PAGLIUCA: I think the relevance is patent, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Perhaps, but not to me.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Here's why. These flight records were, in some fashion, leaked to the media.
JUDGE NATHAN: When you say these flight records, you mean the flight records that are in evidence?
MS. MOE: That's not correct, your Honor. The entirety of the flight records in evidence are not public. That's the exact reason why portions of them are under seal and redacted. So we're not talking about the same flight records.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, I disagree, but the point is, we had a live witness who reviewed what purported to be in the media her travel with Mr. Epstein. That media exposure has influenced other people and I believe, frankly, influenced other people, relative to my client, putting my client on flights saying my client did things. It is the exposure to this information. This witness, I believe, will testify, and has so indicated to the government, that what she viewed was inaccurate information. That's the import of it.
JUDGE NATHAN: So the theory is media defined broadly, could be a blog, a tweet, contains any inaccurate information, it is relevant to ask this witness as to the accuracy of that?
MR. PAGLIUCA: It is inaccurate as to her personally.
JUDGE NATHAN: I understand. But let's say you pull from some blog post, something perhaps inaccurate; relevant to ask this witness?
MR. PAGLIUCA: About her and flight records.
JUDGE NATHAN: Whatever it is from whatever source, there is flight records that show she went to the moon, you should ask her about it?
MR. PAGLIUCA: No, I'm not asking her about flight records going to the moon.
JUDGE NATHAN: So it does matter what you're asking her about.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Of course.
JUDGE NATHAN: So I'll sustain at least on that ground, 401, 403.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. I understand.
JUDGE NATHAN: We can take our break.
(Recess)
JUDGE NATHAN: So I note, I did, at 11:54, Ms. Menninger, receive an application. I think one of the things I asked for was a proposed order, which I don't see. When would the government like to respond?
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, Mr. Rohrbach is currently writing our response. I suspect we can get it to your Honor by the beginning of the lunch break.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. And Mr. Pagliuca, I just want to make sure, we're moving on from the media?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right.
MS. MOE: Very briefly, your Honor, to flag some logistics that Mr. Pagliuca and I worked out. My understanding is that he intends to publish a redacted version flight records --
JUDGE NATHAN: Can we have the witness wait outside for a moment. I apologize. Thank you. Go ahead.
MS. MOE: To flag in advance, I think Mr. Pagliuca intends to offer a redacted version of a government exhibit that we've agreed upon but is not yet in evidence, and so I anticipate that he'll offer a redacted version of the government exhibit, which we prepared and we won't object. And that will be the exhibit that is published.
(Continued on next page)
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MR. PAGLIUCA: So the Court knows, Exhibit 662 is the flight logs. We're going to offer 662-R. I will be -- I would be publishing 662-R to everyone when I refer to 662-R. There are two instances where I will need to refer to 662, and I will only display those to the witness and the Court.
MS. COMEY: And just to clarify, your Honor, when Mr. Rodgers testified, we offered a version of 662-R that had many more redactions. And after conferral with the defense, this new 662-R is a much more narrowly tailored redacted version; so it will replace the 662-R that was previously offered.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Perhaps a different mark for clarity.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm happy to call it and we can remark it 662-RR.
MS. COMEY: That's fine, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Great. Thank you. Okay. And just to be clear, Mr. Pagliuca, when those records are introduced, I'm just trying to avoid the sidebars, is it then going to be about any comparison with what she saw in the media?
MR. PAGLIUCA: No.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I didn't think you would let me do that, so --
JUDGE NATHAN: That doesn't always stop you. I wanted to make sure we were on the same page.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Like any good lawyer, your Honor --
JUDGE NATHAN: There's no doubt about the zealousness of anyone in this room. Are we ready?
MR. PAGLIUCA: I am ready to resume.
JUDGE NATHAN: Now we can get the witness and bring in the jury. Thank you, Ms. Williams.
(Jury present)
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Mr. Pagliuca, you may continue with your direct examination of Dr. Dubin. Dr. Dubin, I remind you, you are under oath. You may inquire.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. At this point, based on the discussion with the government, I would offer Government Exhibit 662-RR at this point, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. 662-RR is admitted.
(Defendant's Exhibit 662-RR received in evidence)
MR. PAGLIUCA: And for the record, your Honor, as we discussed, 662-RR is the redacted version of 662, which are the Dave Rodgers flight records.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. PAGLIUCA:
MR. PAGLIUCA: Dr. Dubin, I'd like to just go through a few examples of flight records. And I understand these are not your records, but they've been admitted in evidence. I want to ask you some questions. I'm not going to go through all of the entries, just a few examples, okay?
MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show Dr. Dubin, please, GX-662, now marked RR, at page 30, please.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you have that on your screen, Dr. Dubin?
JUDGE NATHAN: It's up and you'll need to enlarge.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I will, your Honor. If we can blow up the entry with the 26 on the side. It's going to be flight number 587, which is in the middle of the page. Has that been expanded, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: It has.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And this can be displayed for everyone.
JUDGE NATHAN: Oh, yes, yes. Right.
MR. PAGLIUCA: This is RR.
JUDGE NATHAN: I don't see a mark on it, but can we just get a confirmation that it's RR?
MR. PAGLIUCA: We have the first page that we can display for you, your Honor. And I've shown this to the government.
JUDGE NATHAN: It says R, but --
MR. PAGLIUCA: We added an R during the break.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. All right. Yes.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Might I inquire, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may. And yes, this may be published.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. And now if we can blow up -- this is RR. We need to go to page 30, please. And the 26 in the middle, those two.
BY MR. PAGLIUCA:
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you see those entries, Dr. Dubin?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Now, this is a long time ago, and I expect that you don't remember this flight; is that correct?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: What year is this flight?
MR. PAGLIUCA: 1994.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do not remember the flight, no.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay, then that's fine. I just wanted to ask you some questions about some of the names that are listed, and this is the remarks section. When we're looking to the right, there is JE. Do you know who that refers to?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I assume it's Jeffrey Epstein.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And then there is Eva Andersson, A-N-D-E-R-S-S-O-N. That would be you?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Correct.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And then someone named Frances Jardine. Do you recall Frances Jardine?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I recall Frances. I did not know that her last name was Jardine.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you recall that that was someone that Mr. Epstein was dating in 1994?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. It appears from this flight record that you and Mr. Epstein and Frances Jardine went to DCA -- which I will represent to you is Washington, D.C. airport -- and then returned the same day. And I guess the question is do you recall making that trip?
MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm just orienting the witness, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. I'll allow it, but then let's get to direct questions.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you recall making this trip?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do not.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay.
MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can go down to the second to the last entry.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And again, I'm directing your attention to the people there. Do you recognize this as yourself, Mr. Epstein, and again, Frances Jardine?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And I'm assuming, again -- and this is in 1994 -- that you don't have a specific memory of this flight; is that right?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do not remember this flight.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay.
MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can now turn to page 39 of 662-RR. The entry -- fourth and fifth entries from the top. This would be November '95, November 21st, November 26th.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Can you see that, Dr. Dubin?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I can.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. In the remarks column, the exhibit reflects JE, AS. Do you know who "AS" might have been?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I don't.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. Overruled. You may answer. Do you know?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I don't know who "AS" is.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. Then there is Eva. That would be you; is that correct?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: That's correct.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Glen, that would be Glen Dubin?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And then baby. Did you have a child at that point in time?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: What date is this?
MR. PAGLIUCA: This is November 21st, 1995.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I did.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And then there is an entry, one female. Did you bring a nanny with you after you had a child on the plane?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Most likely, yes.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And this record reflects a flight from Teterboro, which is in New Jersey, to Palm Beach Island.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll sustain now. Move on.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Understood, your Honor.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you recall taking this trip over Thanksgiving with your husband and child to Palm Beach?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I don't recall.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm sorry.
MR. PAGLIUCA: "Recall" is not leading.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow it.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you. A. I don't recall this specific trip, no.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. Now I'd like to turn to GX-12, which is under seal and should only be shown to the witness and the Court.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Dr. Dubin, do you have GX-12 in front of you?
JUDGE NATHAN: Just to caution the witness not to read the name on the document; not to say out loud the name on the document.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I have the document, yes.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And could you just read it to yourself, please, and not read it out loud.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Okay.
MR. PAGLIUCA: The exhibit GX-12 has the name of a person. And again, we're not using the name of the person. But I want to see if you see the name of the person on GX-12, without saying it?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. We are referring to that person as Jane, okay?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Okay.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And without saying her name, do you recall meeting the person identified in GX-12 at any point in time?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I don't recall ever meeting this person.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay.
MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take that down. I'd like to show the witness GX-662, page 44, which is unredacted, so just to the witness and the Court please.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Moe?
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you have that in front of you?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And I'd like to focus on the second and third lines up from the bottom, page 44. And if you could blow up just for the Court and the witness the second and third lines from the bottom, please. That starts with seven and an 11.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Have you been able to read that, Dr. Dubin?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I can't read everything, but I can read some of it.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. The person that we're referring to as Jane, do you see Jane's name next to the flight entry 916, without saying her name?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And again, you do not -- I'm assuming you do not recall meeting anyone named Jane on this flight; is that correct?
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you recall meeting anyone named Jane on this flight?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I don't remember this flight.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Or anyone on this flight.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. That's fine.
MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take that down. And can we put up 662, page 44-R, the same entries, and display those to the jury please, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Moe?
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Go ahead.
MR. PAGLIUCA: We need to make sure this is the RR, redacted version, page 44. And it is.
MR. PAGLIUCA: This is the same document that you were just shown just with a blackout spot there. Do you see that, Dr. Dubin?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And the flight entry has "Eva" in it?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Correct.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you recognize any of the other individuals listed in the remarks section?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: The first one or the second one?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Let's start with the first one and then move on to the second one.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Do I recognize their names?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I recognize Sophie.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Who do you recognize Sophie as being?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Sophie Biddle was someone that worked for Jeffrey.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. Do you know what she did?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I believe she was a massage therapist.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And do you recognize any other names on those entries?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I've heard the name Jeff Schantz, but I can't remember who he is.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. Anyone else in that entry, which is 915?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I can't read the name after Jeff Schantz.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Neither can I. And then below that, do you see any names that you recognize?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I see my husband's name, yes.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And then the next entry, flight 916, do you see any names that you recognize in that entry?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I see my name, I see JE, I see Sophie. I can't read what comes after Sophie.
MR. PAGLIUCA: That's fine.
MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take that down now. I'd like to next show the witness 662-RR, page 49.
JUDGE NATHAN: And if it's 662-RR, it may be published.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. And if we can go to the entries that are the fifth and fourth entries from the bottom.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I want to focus on someone named -- well, do you recognize the name Celina Midelfart?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you recognize that as someone that was dating Mr. Epstein in the '97 time frame?
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you know Celina Midelfart?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I know who she is, yes.
MR. PAGLIUCA: How do you know who she is?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: She was a girlfriend of Jeffrey Epstein's.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. This flight appears to be on August 20th and 23rd, 1997. Do you have any memory of being on this flight?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I don't remember this flight at all.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Next I'd like to turn to 662 unredacted. So this should be just for the witness and the Court, please. Page 55, third line up from the bottom. If we can expand that, please.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you have that in front of you, Dr. Dubin?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: It's only one entry, right?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, just one entry. Thank you.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And again, I want to focus on the names in that entry, which is from 1998. And it looks like it's May 3rd, 1998. And without saying the name that we're not saying, do you see that name in that entry?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And are there other names in that entry that you recognize, without saying who they are at this point?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. Is one of your children's names on this flight list?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And that's fine. And then do you see that you and your husband are on this flight as well?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Correct.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And then the last entry that I would like to look at, and we can use the redacted version for this, so this will be 662-RR, page 114.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And may we publish this, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd like to look at the entry eight lines up from the bottom which begins with a 19. And expand that, please.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you see that entry, Dr. Dubin?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And again, focusing on the remarks section, do you recognize names there?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I do.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And are some of your children on that flight, without identifying them by name?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, misspelled name.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. Okay. This is from TIST to PBI; is that right?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I don't know what TIST is.
MR. PAGLIUCA: That was going to be my next question.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just to make sure I'm right, this is RR; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: It is RR, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take that down.
MR. PAGLIUCA: That's all I'm doing with the flight records. I just have a few more questions, Dr. Dubin.
JUDGE NATHAN: Go ahead.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Dr. Dubin, during the 1994 to 2004 time frame, were you ever introduced to any other person named Eva who was dating Mr. Epstein?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Not that I can recall.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Were you ever introduced to anyone else named Eva who had a close relationship, to your knowledge, with Mr. Epstein?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Not that I can recall.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And I need to ask a couple of final questions about the person that we identified in Exhibit 12, the person that we're calling Jane. And I apologize for asking these questions, okay? Have you ever been in a group sexual encounter with the person we are calling Jane?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Absolutely not.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. Have you ever been in a group sexualized massage with Jane?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I have not.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you.
MR. PAGLIUCA: That's all I have, your Honor. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Moe.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MOE:
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Good afternoon.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: That's correct.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: It's a very, very common name in the Scandinavia, northern Europe, and here.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Many --
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I object to the relevance of these questions.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. A. Many, many, many.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Absolutely not.
MS. MOE: You were asked some questions on direct about your contacts with Jeffrey Epstein, so I want to ask you about some time periods in particular. Focusing on the time frame from 1994 to 2004, how often did you spend time in Jeffrey Epstein's house in Palm Beach?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Not that often. We live in New York City and we would only go to Palm Beach on vacations and occasionally long weekends.
MS. MOE: And when you say "not that often," can you explain for the jury what kind of frequency we're talking about?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Very hard to say because there's so many years. But in Palm Beach specifically?
MS. MOE: Yes, just focusing on Palm Beach from 1994 to 2004, how often were you in that house in Palm Beach?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Maybe four times per year. It's hard -- I really can't remember.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Absolutely not.
MS. MOE: I'm going to ask you just a few questions about what was going on in your life during those years, focusing on the 1990s and, in particular, between 1994 and 2000. In 1994, were you living in Paris?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, we were.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: That's correct.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: 1997.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: That's correct.
MS. MOE: I want to ask you now about your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And in particular, I want to ask you about your observations of the relationship between Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. Did you ever have any conversations with Jeffrey Epstein about the nature of his relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'm going to object to this as being hearsay, calling for a hearsay response.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Sustained.
MS. MOE: Dr. Dubin, based on your conversations -- well, I'll withdraw that and rephrase. Did you have occasions in the 1990s to observe the interactions between Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein?
MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm going to object to this as being vague, time frame, and lacking in foundation.
JUDGE NATHAN: Foundation, overruled. Time frame, sustained.
MS. MOE: Dr. Dubin, focusing on the time frame from 1994 to 2000, during those years, did you have occasion to observe the interactions between Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes. I can't remember specific things, but yes.
MS. MOE: In general, based on your observations of their interactions, at the time, was it your understanding that they were in a relationship?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, objection. Lack of foundation.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. You may answer.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: It's hard to define, I think, "relationship." But they were living in the same house.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection. Lack of foundation.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MOE: Based on your observations and interactions with Maxwell and Epstein, did you have an understanding during the years we've been talking about that they had an open relationship?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection. Lack of foundation.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll take an answer to the question. Do you need to hear it again?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, please.
JUDGE NATHAN: Based on your observations and interactions with Ms. Maxwell and Mr. Epstein, did you have an understanding during the years we've been talking about that they had an open relationship?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I can't really say that I knew whether they did or did not.
BY MS. MOE:
MS. MOE: Based on your interactions with them in the 1990s, it was your understanding at the time that Maxwell was responsible for navigating all of the details of Mr. Epstein's personal life; is that correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Object to the lack of foundation, your Honor. And it's also a compound question.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Again, I object to the lack of foundation and the time frame, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MOE: Focusing on the time period from 1994 and 2000, did you have an understanding of what Maxwell's role was in Epstein's life?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I think I do.
MS. MOE: What kinds of things did you see Maxwell doing for Jeffrey Epstein between 1994 and 2000?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I can't say that I saw what she did, but my understanding was that --
MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm going to object to the rest of this, your Honor, as being lacking in foundation and hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MOE: From your conversations with Ghislaine Maxwell between 1994 and 2000, what kinds of things would she tell you about that she did for Jeffrey Epstein?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, this is beyond the scope of my direct examination, so I object to this as well.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MOE: On direct examination, you were asked some questions about your memories of meeting people. Do you remember being asked those questions?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: When were the questions?
MS. MOE: My question is do you remember Mr. Pagliuca asking you some questions about whether you remembered meeting certain people?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: On the flights?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I do.
MS. MOE: So I want to ask you a few questions about your memory. Dr. Dubin, without getting into any personal medical details, are you having some issues with your memory?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Yes, I do.
MS. MOE: Again, without getting into details because I don't want to invade your privacy, can you just explain for the jury what you mean by that?
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: It's very hard for me to remember anything far back. And sometimes I can't even remember things from last month. And my family notices it and I notice it and it's been an issue.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I think this is beyond the scope of what needs to be discussed at this point.
JUDGE NATHAN: Is this the last question?
JUDGE NATHAN: Nothing -- just the question is, is it related to medical issues?
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow it.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: I believe it is.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
(Counsel conferred)
JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Pagliuca.
MR. PAGLIUCA: I have no redirect, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. Dr. Dubin, you may step down. You are excused. Thank you.
EVA ANDERSSON DUBIN: Thank you so much.
(Witness excused)
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Defense may call -- we have about ten minutes before the lunch break. Defense may call its next witness.
MS. MENNINGER: At this time we call Michelle Healy.
JUDGE NATHAN: Michelle Healy may come forward. MICHELLE HEALY called as a witness by the Defendant, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
JUDGE NATHAN: You may inquire.
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.