Janice Swain — Direct/Cross
315 linesDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Good afternoon, Ms. Swain.
JANICE SWAIN: Good afternoon.
MS. POMERANTZ: If I can ask you to speak directly into the microphone, I want to make sure everyone can hear you.
JANICE SWAIN: Okay.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you. Ms. Swain, how old are you?
JANICE SWAIN: I'm 71.
MS. POMERANTZ: How far did you go in school?
JANICE SWAIN: High school.
MS. POMERANTZ: What kind of work do you do now?
JANICE SWAIN: I'm a sales representative.
MS. POMERANTZ: How many children do you have?
JANICE SWAIN: I have three.
MS. POMERANTZ: What is the name of your oldest child?
JANICE SWAIN: Maria Farmer.
MS. POMERANTZ: In what year was Maria born?
JANICE SWAIN: In 1969.
MS. POMERANTZ: What is the name of your middle child?
JANICE SWAIN: Annie Farmer.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, at this time, I would request that the jurors be permitted to take out their binders and turn to Government Exhibit 13, which is in evidence under seal, and I would ask that the witness turn to Government Exhibit 13.
MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Please open your binder to GX13. The witness is also directed -- is it a binder?
MS. POMERANTZ: I think it's a folder, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: You have a folder there, Ms. Swain?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes, I do.
JUDGE NATHAN: Document marked GX13.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Swain, do you have Government Exhibit 13?
JANICE SWAIN: I do.
MS. POMERANTZ: What is that?
JANICE SWAIN: Annie's birth certificate.
MS. POMERANTZ: And without stating it, is Annie's date of birth reflected on that birth certificate?
JANICE SWAIN: It is.
MS. POMERANTZ: We can put that away.
MS. POMERANTZ: In what state was Annie born?
JANICE SWAIN: Missouri.
MS. POMERANTZ: In what states did Annie grow up?
JANICE SWAIN: In Missouri, Florida, and -- I mean Arizona.
MS. POMERANTZ: In what state did Annie go to high school?
JANICE SWAIN: Arizona.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when did you move to Arizona?
JANICE SWAIN: In 1986 or 7.
MS. POMERANTZ: I want focus on 1995. In 1995, what did you do for work?
JANICE SWAIN: I was a sales representative.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who did you live with in 1995?
JANICE SWAIN: I lived with Annie and my younger daughter.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you live with your children's father in 1995?
JANICE SWAIN: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was your marital status in 1995?
JANICE SWAIN: I was divorced.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you receive financial support from your children's father?
JANICE SWAIN: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: What were your financial circumstances in 1995?
JANICE SWAIN: I was a single mom, had very limited income.
MS. POMERANTZ: In 1995, was Annie in school?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: What grade was she in?
JANICE SWAIN: She was a junior in high school.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can we please pull up what's already in evidence as Government Exhibit 101.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Swain, who's the person in this photograph?
JANICE SWAIN: Annie.
MS. POMERANTZ: Is this a fair and accurate photograph of Annie when she was in high school?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. Thank you very much.
MS. POMERANTZ: At that time, did you have conversations with Annie about preparing for college?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes, we talked about college.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was your plan for paying for college for Annie?
JANICE SWAIN: Student loans.
MS. POMERANTZ: In 1995, where was Maria living?
JANICE SWAIN: In New York.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did Maria do for work in New York?
JANICE SWAIN: She was an artist.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who did Maria work for in New York?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you spoke with Jeffrey Epstein on the phone?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Have you ever met Jeffrey Epstein in person?
JANICE SWAIN: No, I haven't.
MS. POMERANTZ: About when was the first time you spoke with Epstein on the phone?
JANICE SWAIN: In 1995.
MS. POMERANTZ: And how did that come about?
JANICE SWAIN: He called to tell me that he was inviting Maria to go on his plane to Florida for a work trip.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you speak to Epstein once on the phone or more than once on the phone?
JANICE SWAIN: More than once.
MS. POMERANTZ: And during these first few calls, what did Epstein talk to you about?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. I'm sorry. Can I get a timeframe?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I believe that she had testified about 1995.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Overruled.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Swain, after Epstein called you in 1995, what did Epstein talk to you about during the first few calls that he made to you?
JANICE SWAIN: About Maria's art career and her talent.
MS. POMERANTZ: At the time you spoke with him, what was your understanding of who Epstein was?
JANICE SWAIN: That he was Maria's boss.
MS. POMERANTZ: About how many calls in total did you have with Epstein?
JANICE SWAIN: At least six.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Epstein call you about, other than Maria?
JANICE SWAIN: He called me before the Christmas holiday to ask if I would allow Annie to come to New York to visit Maria as a gift to Maria for Christmas.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you have one call or multiple calls with Jeffrey Epstein about Annie?
JANICE SWAIN: Multiple.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you had calls with Epstein, what, if anything, did he discuss with you about Annie's education?
JANICE SWAIN: He just said that he had -- he could probably help guide her in selecting a college and that he would like to introduce her to some other people who could help with that.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when did Epstein first call you about Annie?
JANICE SWAIN: In December of '95.
MS. POMERANTZ: Based on the call, what was Epstein offering to do?
JANICE SWAIN: The first call, to offer her a flight to New York to visit Maria.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you give Annie permission to go to New York?
JANICE SWAIN: I did.
MS. POMERANTZ: How come?
JANICE SWAIN: I thought it would be a good opportunity for the sisters to be together.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Annie go to New York?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when did Annie go to New York?
JANICE SWAIN: Over the Christmas holiday.
MS. POMERANTZ: Was Annie in school at the time she went to New York?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: In what grade was she in?
JANICE SWAIN: She was a junior.
MS. POMERANTZ: Was school in session?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes -- no. It was Christmas break.
MS. POMERANTZ: When Annie returned from New York, did Annie tell you about the trip to New York?
JANICE SWAIN: She didn't talk too much about it. She told me a few places they visited and she did say that Epstein took her and Maria to the movies to see a movie.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Annie travel again during her junior year after the trip to New York?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did Annie go?
JANICE SWAIN: She went to Epstein's ranch in New Mexico.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did it come about that Annie went to New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: He called and told me that he was planning a get-together, a retreat of sorts for a group of 20 to 25 students that were academically gifted and he thought they could discuss their college plans and possibly going abroad to work on their résumés for college.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you said he called me, who are you referring to?
JANICE SWAIN: Jeffrey Epstein.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did you ask Epstein on the call?
JANICE SWAIN: I asked if him, first of all, if he had enough space to accommodate that many students and he said yes, they had cabins that would accommodate 20 to 25 students. And then I asked if it would be boys and girls and he said yes, and so I asked who would be chaperoning the girls.
MS. POMERANTZ: And what did Epstein say in response?
JANICE SWAIN: He said his wife, Ghislaine, would be.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did Epstein tell you that Annie would be --
MS. POMERANTZ: Withdrawn, your Honor.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, made you feel comfortable letting Annie go to New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: I felt like it was a good opportunity for her to be around other students who were planning trips. And he told me that he was funding the trips for all the students. So it seemed like a generous offer and, at that point, I trusted that it would be okay.
(Continued on next page)
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you pay for Annie's trip to New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who paid for the trip?
JANICE SWAIN: Epstein.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you talk to Maxwell on the phone about the trip to New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: Have you ever spoken with Maxwell?
JANICE SWAIN: I have not.
MS. POMERANTZ: Have you ever met Maxwell in person?
JANICE SWAIN: No, I haven't.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Annie go to New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when did Annie go to New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: It was in the spring of '96.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately how long after your call with Epstein did Annie go to New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: I'm not sure if I talked to him one or two times about -- before her trip, but probably the last time I spoke with them was about maybe a few days to a week before her trip.
MS. POMERANTZ: For approximately how long was Annie in New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: For a weekend, Friday night to Sunday night.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did Annie get to the airport to fly to New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: I took her.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did Annie get home from the airport when she returned to Arizona from New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: I picked her up.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you speak to Annie while she was in New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: No, I didn't.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Annie have when she returned from the trip to New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: She had a new pair of black boots.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Annie tell you who bought the boots for her?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes, she said Ghislaine took her shopping and bought the boots.
MS. POMERANTZ: Based on your observations, how would you describe Annie's demeanor when you picked her up from the airport?
JANICE SWAIN: She was very quiet and withdrawn. She didn't want to talk and she seemed very tired.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did Annie do in the summer of 1996?
JANICE SWAIN: She went on a trip that -- one of the trips that had been discussed to Thailand and Vietnam.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was Annie doing in Thailand and Vietnam?
JANICE SWAIN: I think they worked on like an orphanage and a school.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you pay for Annie's trip to Thailand and Vietnam?
JANICE SWAIN: No, I didn't.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who paid for her trip to Thailand and Vietnam?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Foundation, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Annie tell you who paid for her trip to Thailand and Vietnam?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow the question.
JANICE SWAIN: She raised --
JUDGE NATHAN: Sorry. Just a yes or no to the question.
JANICE SWAIN: Oh, I'm sorry.
MS. POMERANTZ: The question --
MS. POMERANTZ: I'll repeat it, if I may, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: Sure.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Annie tell you who paid for her trip to Thailand and Vietnam?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who did she tell you paid for the trip?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Foundation for that.
JUDGE NATHAN: Foundation is the objection?
MS. MENNINGER: It's hearsay foundation.
MS. POMERANTZ: Prior consistent statement, your Honor.
MS. MENNINGER: It's not, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Hearsay -- sustained.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: You said earlier that Annie seemed tired and withdrawn after the New Mexico trip.
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you asked her about the trip again?
JANICE SWAIN: Other than the night I brought her home? I tried to talk to her that night, and she said she was too tired to talk.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you ask her about the trip once or more than once?
JANICE SWAIN: More than once.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you spoke with her about the trip to New Mexico after she returned from Thailand and Vietnam in the summer of 1996?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did you ask her?
JANICE SWAIN: I asked her what happened when she was in New Mexico.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did Annie say in response?
JANICE SWAIN: She said, I don't want to talk about it. And I'm just not going to let it ruin my life.
MS. POMERANTZ: Based on your observations, how would you describe Annie's demeanor when you tried to talk to her about New Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: She's just always very evasive and she didn't -- she just didn't want to discuss it. And she would always say the same thing: I'm not going to let it ruin my life.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred)
MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Ms. Menninger.
MS. MENNINGER: Briefly, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Go ahead.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: I just want to confirm, Ghislaine Maxwell never called you in relationship to anything, right?
JANICE SWAIN: No.
MS. MENNINGER: You've never spoken to her, right?
JANICE SWAIN: I have not.
MS. MENNINGER: You've never met her?
JANICE SWAIN: I have not.
MS. MENNINGER: The reference that you gave earlier about "your wife being there," that came from Jeffrey Epstein, right?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: On a phone call you had with Jeffrey Epstein?
JANICE SWAIN: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Did Jeffrey Epstein tell you that he kept secrets from Ghislaine?
JANICE SWAIN: No, I didn't ever hear that.
MS. MENNINGER: Did Jeffrey Epstein tell you that he was dating other women behind Ghislaine's back?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
MS. MENNINGER: 806, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. I need to hear you. I'm not tracking.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay.
(At sidebar)
JUDGE NATHAN: Where are we going?
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, once the government elicits co-conspirator statements under 801(d)(2)(E), under 806, I'm allowed to impeach the declarant as though they were testifying. So I'm asking questions about Jeffrey Epstein through this witness, who is the one from whom they elicited the 801(d)(2)(E) statements. That's what I believe 806 provides.
JUDGE NATHAN: You have a series of questions about things that Epstein didn't tell her?
MS. MENNINGER: Correct.
MS. MOE: Your Honor, this is all a line of argument, they are not questions. This witness doesn't know anything about it. I'm not sure what the basis is for trying to impeach Jeffrey Epstein's credibility through this particular witness. It's all argument.
JUDGE NATHAN: We're not going to do ten --
JUDGE NATHAN: We're going to do --
MS. MENNINGER: A handful; three.
JUDGE NATHAN: Three questions and then move on.
(In open court)
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: Did Jeffrey Epstein tell you on the phone calls with you that he was dating other women behind Ghislaine Maxwell's back?
JANICE SWAIN: We didn't discuss her in those calls.
MS. MENNINGER: Did Mr. Epstein tell you that he manipulated people around him for his own personal gain?
JANICE SWAIN: No.
MS. MENNINGER: When Mr. Epstein talked to you about this trip to New Mexico, it's true that he originally told you that Maria was going to be going on the trip; correct?
JANICE SWAIN: Would you repeat that?
MS. MENNINGER: When Mr. Epstein talked to you about Annie's trip to New Mexico, he originally told you that Maria was going to go on the trip; correct?
JANICE SWAIN: No.
MS. MENNINGER: Because you never talked to Ghislaine Maxwell, you don't know what she knew about this trip; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. I think it's a bit confusing.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You've never talked to Ms. Maxwell about the New Mexico trip before or after; correct?
JANICE SWAIN: I have never spoken with her.
MS. MENNINGER: But you don't know whether she was aware that Annie was coming on this trip; correct?
JANICE SWAIN: She picked her up at the airport.
MS. MENNINGER: I'm sorry, what?
JANICE SWAIN: I think she picked her up at the airport.
MS. MENNINGER: Is that what Annie told you?
JANICE SWAIN: I thought that's what happened.
MS. MENNINGER: Not a driver?
JANICE SWAIN: I really don't know. It was just my -- that's what I thought.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. So you don't know what Ghislaine Maxwell knew about Annie coming or going, right?
JANICE SWAIN: I don't.
MS. MENNINGER: Regarding the trip to Thailand, you personally observed Annie working to earn money for that trip; correct?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And Annie had been on trips before; correct?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: She had been to Mexico?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You, yourself, were on a trip to Europe when she was in Thailand; correct?
JANICE SWAIN: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Annie did, in fact, go to an Ivy League college, right?
JANICE SWAIN: She did.
MS. MENNINGER: And Mr. Epstein didn't pay for that college; correct?
JANICE SWAIN: No.
MS. MENNINGER: If I could have one moment, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred)
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: In that summer when Annie was in Thailand, you were in Germany; correct?
JANICE SWAIN: Yes, I was.
MS. MENNINGER: No further questions. Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Pomerantz?
MS. POMERANTZ: No redirect.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Ms. Swain, thank you. You are excused. You may step down.
(Witness excused) Ms. Pomerantz? Ms. Moe?
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Thank you. Let me briefly speak to counsel.
(Continued on next page)
(At sidebar)
JUDGE NATHAN: I should have clarified this before, but I will excuse the jury. I will excuse the jury with instructions; correct?
JUDGE NATHAN: You still anticipate a defense case?
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: So I will say I want to give them -- I'm going to go over my instructions. I'm going to say no discussions, keep an open mind. The government has rested. The defense case will be next. Okay with that?
MS. STERNHEIM: Perfect.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: And then I'll hear the Rule 29 motion.
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court)
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, as you've heard, the government has rested. We're going to break a little bit early today and resume, as I said, on Thursday at our normal time, with the next phase of the case, which is the defense case. Because we're going to be apart for five days, I'm going to just take a minute to carefully remind you of all my instructions. And I know that you know this, but it's important, since we're moving to the next phase of the case. No consumption of any kind of media or information through any means about the case. No discussions with each other or anyone else about the case or anyone involved in the case. No communications with anyone through any means about the case. And although the government has rested, it's important to keep an open mind, as I've said, until we get to the next stage of the case and through to the later stages until you begin your deliberations. With that, I bid you a happy Friday and a good weekend, a long weekend for us. I will see you Thursday. We'll start promptly at 9:30 on Thursday morning. Thank you so much.