Annie Farmer — Direct/Cross/Redirect
2,701 linesDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Good morning.
ANNIE FARMER: Good morning.
MS. POMERANTZ: How old are you?
ANNIE FARMER: I'm 42 years old.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, at this time, I would ask that the jurors be permitted to take out their binders and turn to Government Exhibit 13, which is in evidence under seal, and I would ask that the witness also look at Government Exhibit 13.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Menninger, without objection?
MS. MENNINGER: Sorry, your Honor. One moment.
JUDGE NATHAN: That's okay.
MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, you could open your binder to GX13 and direct the witness to open to GX13.
MS. POMERANTZ: What is Government Exhibit 13?
ANNIE FARMER: It's a copy of my birth certificate.
MS. POMERANTZ: Directing your attention on the first line towards the top right, is that the date of your birth?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, that's correct.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, we can put that away now.
JUDGE NATHAN: You can put down your binders. Thank you.
MS. POMERANTZ: In what state were you born?
ANNIE FARMER: Missouri.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you grow up?
ANNIE FARMER: I moved around a bit when I was young, but when I was 8 years old, I moved to Arizona and lived there until I graduated from high school.
MS. POMERANTZ: How far did you go in school?
ANNIE FARMER: I completed my Ph.D.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you go to college?
ANNIE FARMER: I went to the University of Pennsylvania for my undergraduate.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you get your Ph.D.?
ANNIE FARMER: University of Texas at Austin.
MS. POMERANTZ: What is your Ph.D. in?
ANNIE FARMER: Educational psychology.
MS. POMERANTZ: What kind of work do you do now?
ANNIE FARMER: I'm a psychologist and I work primarily as a therapist.
MS. POMERANTZ: Now, Annie, could you please look around the courtroom and let us know, you do you see anyone in this courtroom who has ever given you a massage?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, I do.
MS. POMERANTZ: Could you please describe where the person you recognize is sitting and describe an item of clothing the person is wearing.
ANNIE FARMER: She's wearing a brown sweater. She's seated to my right at the end of the table next to you.
MS. POMERANTZ: Let the record reflect that the witness has identified the defendant.
JUDGE NATHAN: Record may so reflect.
MS. POMERANTZ: How old were you when Maxwell gave you a massage?
ANNIE FARMER: I was 16 years old.
MS. POMERANTZ: We'll talk about that more later, but I want to switch gears and take a step back.
ANNIE FARMER: Okay.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you go to high school?
ANNIE FARMER: I went to high school in Phoenix, Arizona.
MS. POMERANTZ: And when you were about 16 years old, in what state were you living?
ANNIE FARMER: In Arizona.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you were 16 years old, who did you live with at home?
ANNIE FARMER: I lived with my mom and my little sister, Ashley, and our dog.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did your dad live with you?
ANNIE FARMER: No. My parents are divorced.
MS. POMERANTZ: Was your mother employed?
ANNIE FARMER: She was.
MS. POMERANTZ: What kind of work did she do?
ANNIE FARMER: She was a sales rep for Owen Company, and she worked for herself -- worked with a couple of different companies.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was your understanding of your family's financial circumstances when you were 16 years old?
ANNIE FARMER: Money was tight. It had often been a stressor since my parents were divorced and my mom was supporting my sisters and I pretty much on her own without much help at all from my father. So I was in high school and looking forward to college and worried about money and how that would work out.
MS. POMERANTZ: You mentioned that you lived with your mom and your younger sister. Do you have any other siblings?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, I have an older sister.
MS. POMERANTZ: What is your older sister's name?
ANNIE FARMER: Maria Farmer.
MS. POMERANTZ: About how much older than you is your sister?
ANNIE FARMER: She is a little more than nine years older than me.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you were 16 years old, where did Maria live?
ANNIE FARMER: She lived in Manhattan.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did Maria do for a living?
ANNIE FARMER: She had just completed her graduate school in painting and she was working as a painter, but her employment was with Jeffrey Epstein.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you talk to Maria while she was working for Jeffrey Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you speak with Maria?
ANNIE FARMER: We would talk on the phone.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you visited Maria in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when did you visit Maria in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: It was December 1995.
MS. POMERANTZ: Had you visited Maria in New York before December 1995?
ANNIE FARMER: I had not.
MS. POMERANTZ: Why not?
ANNIE FARMER: Money was, as I said, tight for us. So she had graduated, but we had not been able to attend that. And just affording a plane ticket was a big deal. So I had not gone to visit her.
MS. POMERANTZ: How was it that you were able to afford this trip in December 1995 to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Jeffrey Epstein purchased a ticket for me.
MS. POMERANTZ: What were you hoping to do on this trip to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: I was hoping, one, to see my sister. I was very excited to see her. It had been some time. I was also hoping to be acquainted with Jeffrey Epstein. He had said that he was interested in helping --
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. It wasn't directly to her.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, did there come a time when your sister spoke to you about a trip to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: And what did she tell you about this trip to New York?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, effect on the listener.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Is this the issue we've discussed?
MS. POMERANTZ: I believe so, yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Overruled.
MS. MENNINGER: If that's the question --
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll listen to the testimony and if it's beyond that, I'll hear the objection.
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Go ahead. Do you need the question repeated?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes. Could you repeat that.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: What had your sister, Maria, told you about the trip to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: She had said that Epstein was interested in possibly helping me with my education, and this was one of the reasons that he was purchasing my ticket.
MS. MENNINGER: I renew my objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: So I'll overrule the objection, but I will tell the jury that the testimony that Ms. Farmer just provided about what was told to her is not being offered for the truth, but for the limited purpose of the effect on the listener, Ms. Farmer. Go ahead.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you travel to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: I flew, commercially.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who, if anyone, did you travel with to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: No one. I flew by myself.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who paid for your flight to New York?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Foundation, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you pay for your flight to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: I did not.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you were in New York, who, if anyone, did you think bought you the ticket?
ANNIE FARMER: When I met Epstein --
MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay. It's being offered for that purpose.
JUDGE NATHAN: Additional foundation questions are required.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I'll move on for now. Thank you.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you stay in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: I stayed with my sister in her apartment.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately how long were you in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: I believe it was about a week.
MS. POMERANTZ: When did you go to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: After Christmas in 1995.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you met Jeffrey Epstein during that trip?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you meet Maxwell during this trip to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: I did not.
MS. POMERANTZ: How many times did you see Jeffrey Epstein during this trip in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: There were two different occasions that I recall.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up for just the witness, the parties, and the Court, what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 101.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, do you recognize this?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: What is it?
ANNIE FARMER: It's my high school photo from my junior year in high school.
MS. POMERANTZ: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of your physical appearance around the time you met Jeffrey Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: It is.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 101 in evidence.
MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. GX101 is admitted. You may publish.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: How old were you at the time this photograph was taken?
ANNIE FARMER: I was 16 years old.
MS. POMERANTZ: How old were you on the trip to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: I was 16 years old.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can you please pull up what's already in evidence as Government Exhibit 112.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, do you recognize the person in this photograph?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who is it?
ANNIE FARMER: It's Jeffrey Epstein.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. Thanks very much.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you please describe for the jury what happened the first time you met Jeffrey Epstein.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes. My sister and I went to his home. He had purchased tickets for us to attend the Phantom of the Opera. So we met with him at his home. He was very -- he seemed very friendly and kind of down to earth, he was dressed casually. We were dressed up because we were going to the theater and this was a big deal because I had been very excited about seeing this production, and he invited us into his home and we talked and served us champaign. And then, later on, his driver took us to the play.
MS. POMERANTZ: Just to unpack that a little bit. Where did you meet Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: At his home.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you describe for the jury what the home looked like.
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, it was a very grand home. I was staying with my sister in her apartment, which is about, I think, 500 square feet. So I had never been in a private residence that was so large in the city before. It was full of very nice things. I remember sitting across a desk from him, like, you know, a beautiful large wooden desk in this kind of library room. And, yeah, it was just a very, you know, a very fancy home.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Farmer, could I ask you to move the microphone a little bit closer to you if you speak directly into it.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes. Sorry.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Epstein ask you about?
ANNIE FARMER: Well, one thing he asked me about was my plans for after high school, and we talked a bit about colleges and he asked me where I was considering. I remember he suggested that I should look at UCLA, that that was a place that he liked or had some connection. And then, yeah, just made, you know, made small talk.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Epstein talk to you about in terms of your summer?
ANNIE FARMER: We'd talked about the idea of me going on a trip that summer, something that would help sort of boost my application for college, that would look good. So a lot of people at that time were doing international trips and he said that was something he thought would be a good idea for me to do and he would be willing to help me with that.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you feel when you first met Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: I was excited. He was, again, very friendly with me, he seemed down to earth. I had been sort of intimidated by what I heard of him, but he seemed, you know, very nice when I met him. What he said about wanting to help me was, of course, exciting, reassuring.
(Continued on next page)
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: After you met Epstein in his home, where did you go?
ANNIE FARMER: His driver took my sister and I to see The Phantom of the Opera.
MS. POMERANTZ: And who -- just to be clear, who went to the theater?
ANNIE FARMER: My sister Maria and I.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you see Jeffrey Epstein again during this trip to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you see him again?
ANNIE FARMER: We met him one evening to go see a movie.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who went to the movies?
ANNIE FARMER: My sister, myself, and Jeffrey Epstein.
MS. POMERANTZ: What movie did you see?
ANNIE FARMER: The movie Five Monkeys.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who did you sit next to at the movie theater?
ANNIE FARMER: I sat next to Epstein.
MS. POMERANTZ: And where was Maria seated?
ANNIE FARMER: She was seated on his other side.
MS. POMERANTZ: What happened during the movie?
ANNIE FARMER: Initially, when the lights went down, watching the movie. And then at some point he reaches over and puts his hand on the armrest in between our seats and starts to reach for my hand. And then, you know, caressed my hand; and then, you know, interlocked his hand with mine, holding my hand. And then also was rubbing my -- I think I had my, you know, legs crossed, so he was rubbing the bottom of my shoe and then rubbing my foot and my leg.
MS. POMERANTZ: When he was doing that, what was your reaction?
ANNIE FARMER: I was very surprised. I was very nervous and anxious. I felt sick to my stomach. It was not something that I was at all expecting. And I noticed that when he would interact in some way with my sister, that he would stop doing that. And then when he -- when the interaction was over, we were watching -- he was looking forward again, he would return to touching me.
MS. POMERANTZ: What happened after the movie ended?
ANNIE FARMER: When the movie ended, we got up, left the theater. And he said good-bye and walked -- my sister and I walked back.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you tell your sister about what had happened in the movie theater?
ANNIE FARMER: I did not.
MS. POMERANTZ: Why not?
ANNIE FARMER: I was, number one, very confused about what had happened. And I knew that she was very protective. And if I told her that he had done something that aimed to touch me and make me so uncomfortable, that she would be upset. And that was her employer. And I thought that would -- you know, she could possibly lose her job. It would be bad for her. And so I just -- I decided not to say anything.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you left the movie theater, did you see Epstein again while you were in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: No, I did not.
MS. POMERANTZ: At the time you were visiting Epstein when you were 16 years old, what were you hoping to do the following summer?
ANNIE FARMER: I was hoping to go on a trip, to go on an international trip to help me with maybe getting into a good school.
MS. POMERANTZ: During this time period, did you write in a journal?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you describe your journaling practice at this time.
ANNIE FARMER: I was -- I was not a consistent journaler, but I would just from time to time write about things happening in my life, write about my thoughts and feelings about different things, yeah.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 601.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, do you recognize this?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, this is a notebook I used as a journal at that time in my life.
MS. POMERANTZ: Is that the cover of the journal?
ANNIE FARMER: That's the cover, yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the cover of your journal?
ANNIE FARMER: It is.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 601 in evidence.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, subject to our request under Rule 106, we have no objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. 601 is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit 601 received in evidence)
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. I would ask if that could be published, please.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 603.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, do you recognize this?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: We could scroll to -- I believe there are two pages. If we could just scroll to the second page. Thank you.
MS. POMERANTZ: What is this?
ANNIE FARMER: It is an entry from that journal.
MS. POMERANTZ: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of an entry from your journal?
ANNIE FARMER: It is.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 603.
MS. MENNINGER: Same objection under Rule 106.
JUDGE NATHAN: GX-603 is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit 603 received in evidence)
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I would ask that we publish it at this time.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, what is the date of this entry?
ANNIE FARMER: January 7th, 1996.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you please read the entry for the jury.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes. I got back from my trip to New York today. I had such a great time. It is really depressing to be back home. I feel like it was a trip that changed my whole outlook on life. I guess I always feel that way a little bit when I get back home -- when I get back from trips. But it is overwhelming this time. Continue reading? I am so ready to be out of high school and in college. Everything seems so silly, going out, etc. It did a little before anyway. I even feel a little isolated from my friends. Before I left, I was on a high of how great my friends were. I still realize how wonderful they are, but I feel more independent, like they aren't necessary.
MS. POMERANTZ: You can keep reading.
ANNIE FARMER: Okay. I felt like this when I got back from Mexico, and it faded quickly, but I have a feeling it is different this time. New York is such an amazing city. I felt really comfortable there, like I know that I belong there and would live there at some point, hopefully soon. I miss Maria so much already. It seems unfair that I can't see her more often. I feel like I'm missing so much. There is so much to tell about the trip, but I don't know where to begin. The best night was when Maria and I saw Phantom of the Opera. We went to Jeff Epstein's house and had champagne with him. I found him down-to-earth and easy to talk to. I thanked him so much for the trip, etc. We then took his car. His driver actually took us to Phantom. I didn't know any play could be so moving. I had seen it before, but still couldn't believe it. I bawled. It was fantastic. After the play, we walked around the plaza and went home. It was so much fun.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 604. You can scroll to the second page. Thank you. And we can go back up to the top. Thank you, Ms. Drescher.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, do you recognize this?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes. It's another entry from the same journal.
MS. POMERANTZ: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of an entry from your journal?
ANNIE FARMER: It is.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 604.
MS. MENNINGER: Same 106 objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Overruled. GX-604 is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit 604 received in evidence)
MS. POMERANTZ: What is the date of this entry?
MS. POMERANTZ: Oh, your Honor, I'm sorry. Can we please publish it?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, what is the date of this entry?
ANNIE FARMER: January 25th, 1996.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you please read the entry for the jury.
ANNIE FARMER: It has been a couple of weeks since I got back, and I have gotten back into the swing of things. A couple of quick details about New York I didn't mention earlier. Went to see The Dutchess, a decent play, and Blue Man Group tubes Off Broadway. A really cool production. Went to the flea market, where I got some cool stuff. Went to Jeffrey Epstein's mansion. Went to The Met, a pretty fun New Year's Eve party. Went to thrift stores where I got an amazing dress for prom. It's from the '50s, laced with pink flowers with rhinetones in the middle all over it. It is my dream dress. One night we went to the movies with Jeffrey Epstein. It was -- it was a little weird; one of those things that is hard to explain. We were sitting next to each other, and he put out his hand for me to hold, and we were holding hands. Not weird. Normal. Fine. Then he kind of caressed, rubbed my arm and shoe, foot.
It was one of those things that just gave me a weird feeling, but wasn't that weird and probably normal. The one thing that kind of weirded me out about it was he let go of my hand when he was talking to Maria. Oh, well, I decided it was no big deal. It just made me mad because he's being so amazing, paying for a summer program for me and helping me with college. He's so nice and so generous with everyone. I just didn't want to have any weird feelings about it. I didn't/couldn't say anything to Maria about it because she worships him and it would just create problems. I couldn't tell anyone else because it is not a big deal and I didn't want to portray him in a bad light. I really don't think it is a big deal. I think he is just a relaxed guy and likes to flirt or was being fatherly or something. I know this sounds like me trying to justify him doing something weird, but it isn't. Continue reading?
MS. POMERANTZ: Let me just pause you right there. Can you explain how you were feeling about Epstein at the time you were writing about him in your journal.
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah. I think that I was obviously very conflicted because I knew what had happened in the movie theater was not normal or right. And but it had made me feel very uncomfortable. But I was trying to come up with excuses or justifications in my mind to make it seem okay, because of what I saw as, you know, him being such a generous, nice person. And so, you know, I'm trying to -- I'm trying to make sense of it and I'm having a hard time.
MS. POMERANTZ: I'll ask you to continue reading from where it says "Right now."
ANNIE FARMER: Right now my big concern is what I am going to do this summer. There are so many cools things to do and amazing places to go. Right now I'm really thinking about doing something in Africa. It would be incredible. So different, so beautiful, all the different people. I would love it. I think I will really be happy doing almost anything.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. Your Honor, may I have just one moment please?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred)
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, after meeting Epstein in New York, did you and Epstein stay in touch?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you and Epstein communicate?
ANNIE FARMER: We spoke on the phone.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately how many times did you speak with Epstein by phone after your trip to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Approximately two or three times.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you saw Jeffrey Epstein in person again?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when did you see him?
ANNIE FARMER: In April of 1996, the spring of 1996, I think it was April.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you see Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: In New Mexico.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up for just the parties, the witness, and the Court what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 102.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, do you recognize this?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: What is this?
ANNIE FARMER: It's a photo of me getting ready for prom.
MS. POMERANTZ: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of your physical appearance during the spring of 1996?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 102.
MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. GX-102 is admitted.
(Government's Exhibit 102 received in evidence)
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may we publish at this time?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, how old were you at the time this photograph was taken?
ANNIE FARMER: I was 16 years old.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where was the photograph taken?
ANNIE FARMER: In my apartment.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who invited you on this trip to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: Epstein invited me.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you learn you were going to be allowed to go on this trip to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: My best recollection is from my mom, that we had talked about it.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who, if anyone, did you understand you would be seeing in New Mexico?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Foundation, your Honor, hearsay or not.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: In the spring of 1996, did there come a time when you learned that you would be going to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: I think you mentioned you learned about that from your mother; is that right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. POMERANTZ: Based on your conversations with your mother, who did you understand you would be seeing in New Mexico?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, this is not being offered for the truth.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: May I have one moment?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred)
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may we approach?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Continued on next page)
(At sidebar)
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. This information is being asked not for the truth of the matter being asserted, but for her state of mind for what was in her mind at the time that she was going to New Mexico, why she felt comfortable, why she felt more comfortable going to this trip. It's not being offered for the truth of the matter; it's being offered for what her state of mind was when she was going on this trip to New Mexico.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, this is backdoor hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: It is backdoor hearsay. You can ask her about going on the trip, why she went and why she was comfortable. But to the extent you're eliciting -- which you clearly are -- hearsay as to what her mother told her about who would be there, objection sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: Her mother is testifying; so if there's a conversation between Epstein and her mother, I understand that that would perhaps come in through the mother.
JUDGE NATHAN: Right.
MS. POMERANTZ: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Counsel, the other thing you can say is after you had your conversation with your mother, did you then go to New Mexico. And again, you can ask her about her own experience, but not elicit the hearsay of what her mother told her.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, just to the extent it's why she went, it's, I understand after the conversation with the mother, I went to New Mexico. But if it's the content from the mother to her, that's where it gets into the hearsay piece.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, just to clarify, the jury just heard this witness say she felt uncomfortable around Jeffrey Epstein; and that she knew something was wrong. The point of this is not to give the truth of what the mother said, but to explain why she was willing to go back to see Jeffrey Epstein again. That is all we're trying to elicit.
JUDGE NATHAN: You're trying to elicit that her mother told her that Maxwell would be there, which is for the truth and hearsay. In any event, because it is central to the question coming in as hearsay, there's a 403 issue. I think you can get this -- you can get who was there, etc., but not what her mother told her for the truth, which is, I think, plainly what you're trying to do.
MS. MOE: Your Honor, I can be more precise. I think the questions would be, Did you feel comfortable going to New Mexico? Why did you feel comfortable going to New Mexico? And then we wouldn't object to a limiting instruction. It's not offered for the truth, it's to explain the progress of events and why she would feel comfortable doing something like that.
JUDGE NATHAN: Counsel, there's a limit, and hearsay is the limit, and this is a central question. You have the witness, you have Maria Farmer coming to testify. I presume, although I don't know, that she can testify Ms. Farmer was there in New Mexico; correct?
JUDGE NATHAN: And then you can ask her how she felt about that. But you can't do it through hearsay. Sustained.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court)
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, did you travel to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you travel to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: I flew commercially.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you pay for your ticket to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: I did not.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you thank anyone for paying for your ticket to New Mexico?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Foundation. Hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: Foundation, overruled. Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: I thanked Epstein when I got to New Mexico.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who, if anyone, did you travel with to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: I traveled alone.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when did you go to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: The spring of 1996; I believe it was April.
MS. POMERANTZ: And approximately how long were you in New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: It was a weekend trip.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you landed in New Mexico, what happened next?
ANNIE FARMER: There was a man at the airport that had a sign with my name on it, and so I went with him. He was a driver. And he drove me out to the ranch.
MS. POMERANTZ: You mentioned the ranch. Can you describe the ranch for the jury.
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah. It was a large -- a large piece of property in New Mexico, so kind of a desert landscape. And there were different sections. And there was one that had like an old movie set, like a western movie set on it. And then there was a portion where we were staying where there's a small residence.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'd ask you again, Ms. Farmer, if you can maybe shift it a little bit closer to you. Thank you. Perfect. Thank you.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who, if anyone, did you meet at the ranch?
ANNIE FARMER: When I arrived, I had met -- I mean, I saw Epstein, and then I met Ghislaine Maxwell.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did Maxwell look like?
ANNIE FARMER: She was trim, attractive woman, well-dressed, dark hair.
MS. POMERANTZ: About how old did Maxwell seem?
ANNIE FARMER: I believe she was in her thirties, so at the time she was an adult.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can we please pull up what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 115.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, do you recognize the person in this photograph?
ANNIE FARMER: I do.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who is it?
ANNIE FARMER: Ghislaine Maxwell.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull that down. Thank you.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did Maxwell sound like?
ANNIE FARMER: She had a British accent and she was well-spoken and articulate. And she was enthusiastic in greeting me and speaking with me.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, had you wanted to go to New Mexico at the time?
ANNIE FARMER: No, I was not eager to go to New Mexico.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, made you feel more comfortable about going to New Mexico?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm going to overrule here and I'll adopt a limiting instruction.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.
ANNIE FARMER: I had been told that Maxwell would be in New Mexico with Epstein; and so that made me feel more comfortable. Basically, after what had happened in the movie theater in New York, I did not want to be alone with him. But I thought that Ghislaine was his romantic partner, and I didn't think he would do anything like that while they were together.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I think we need to say who told her that.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. You may ask and then I'll give the instruction.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who told you that?
ANNIE FARMER: I was told by my mother.
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, the testimony the witness provided about what her mother told her is not being offered for the truth, but for the limited purposes of the effect on the listener. Go ahead.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Based on your observations that weekend, what was your understanding at the time of the relationship between Epstein and Maxwell?
ANNIE FARMER: I believed that they were romantic partners. They were very intimate with each other in terms of touching each other and the way that they spoke with each other and interacted; it was what I had seen from couples.
MS. POMERANTZ: What happened after you got to the ranch?
ANNIE FARMER: When I first arrived, I remember we did a little bit of a tour, where I saw this portion I mentioned where there was this western movie set and, I believe, some horses. And, you know, I was, I guess, oriented a little bit to the property.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you stay at the ranch?
ANNIE FARMER: In a small residence.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who else stayed in that residence?
ANNIE FARMER: Epstein and Maxwell.
MS. POMERANTZ: Was anyone else staying in that area of the ranch?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you see staff at the ranch that weekend?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, I did see like a couple of men that I believe were ranch hands or caretakers for the property; and the driver, you know, I mentioned who took me to the airport.
MS. POMERANTZ: Apart from staff and Epstein and Maxwell, was anyone else staying at the residence?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was your reaction at the time about being at the ranch with only Epstein and Maxwell?
ANNIE FARMER: I think it was -- you know, it seemed unusual in a way, being that I was a teenager, to be spending this time with them. But I also -- there is a way in which it sort of made me feel special that they would want to spend this time with me. So I think it was a mixed bag.
MS. POMERANTZ: Based on your initial conversations with Maxwell, did you have the impression that she was surprised to see you or did she seem to expect you?
ANNIE FARMER: She did not seem surprised to see me at all. She -- yeah, she seemed to know who I was and be excited to be meeting me.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was your impression of Maxwell?
ANNIE FARMER: She was very outgoing and talked a bit of engaging with me, so I enjoyed meeting with her and talking with her.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did you and Maxwell talk about?
ANNIE FARMER: She was just, you know, making conversation with me about my life, asking me -- I remember we talked a bit about my school, and I was writing a paper about some British authors. And I remember bringing this up to her and talking to her about that. And I think just, you know, kind of general life things, what I was doing.
MS. POMERANTZ: You mentioned that Epstein and Maxwell gave you a tour of the ranch. Did you leave the ranch that weekend?
ANNIE FARMER: We did.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you go?
ANNIE FARMER: We went into town, and I remember we did a little bit of shopping. We went to a natural food store of some sort. And Ghislaine offered to buy me some product. I remember she bought me this henna hair lightening cream of some kind. And then on that same outing, we went to a western wear store where they had me try on cowboy boots and purchased a pair of cowboy boots for me.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you said "we went shopping," who went shopping?
ANNIE FARMER: Epstein, Maxwell, and myself.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did the cowboy boots look like?
ANNIE FARMER: They were black leather pointy standard cowboy boots.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who bought the boots for you?
ANNIE FARMER: Epstein.
MS. POMERANTZ: And who was present at the time of the boots being purchased?
ANNIE FARMER: Maxwell as well.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you keep the cowboy boots?
ANNIE FARMER: I -- yes, I did.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was your reaction at the time that the cowboy boots were purchased for you?
ANNIE FARMER: It was -- I remember it seemed -- because they cost over $100, it seemed they were very expensive to me. And so, you know, I was very grateful; although I didn't really have any reason to be wearing cowboy boots, so it wasn't something I had been seeking out or wanting. But the -- you know, I was gracious about it.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you left the ranch again?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you go?
ANNIE FARMER: We went to the movies.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who went to the movies?
ANNIE FARMER: Sorry. Maxwell, Epstein, and I.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you want to go to the movies?
ANNIE FARMER: No. I think because of what had happened in the movie theater in New York, I was -- that was not something I was eager to do. But I imagined it would be different this time because Maxwell was there.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, happened before you went in to watch the movie?
ANNIE FARMER: Oh, so the movie theater is in sort of a mall area, and we -- there was a ticket counter and they purchased tickets and we were waiting to go in. And Epstein and Maxwell were being very, like, playful with each other and kind of grabbing each other. And Maxwell went to, like, pull Epstein's pants down a little bit and, you know, sort of like depantsing someone, which seemed very odd to me at the time because they were adults and this is the kind of thing, you know, I would expect more from younger people. And so I was kind of, you know, just caught off guard by it and thought it seemed odd.
MS. POMERANTZ: What movie did you see?
ANNIE FARMER: We saw Primal Fear.
MS. POMERANTZ: How were you, Epstein, and Maxwell seated during the movie?
ANNIE FARMER: I was seated next to Epstein, and I believe Maxwell was on his other side.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, happened during the movie?
ANNIE FARMER: It was very similar to the first time that I went to the movies with Epstein in that he right away began to hold my hand and caress it and, you know -- and rub on my -- on my foot and on my arm.
MS. POMERANTZ: For approximately how much of the movie did Epstein touch you in the way you just described?
ANNIE FARMER: Throughout the majority of the movie. And he also had popcorn, I think, and was, you know, eating. But it was -- he did not -- unlike in New York, he didn't seem to be concerned about hiding those behaviors. He was very blatant in doing it throughout the film.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did what Epstein do in the movie theater in New Mexico compare with what he did in the movie theater in New York?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Asked and answered, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah. I'd say it was very similar, except for more blatant -- like not -- he wasn't -- he wasn't stopping. It was just this is what he was doing.
MS. POMERANTZ: What else do you recall happening in New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: So we were at the movies. Another experience after we were back at the residence was that it was decided that I would learn how to give Epstein a foot massage. Maxwell wanted to show me how to rub his feet; and so that was something I should learn how to do. And so she sat and held one of his feet, and then instructed me to hold his other foot and showed me how to rub it.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where were you when this took place?
ANNIE FARMER: In the same little area. There was a couch. I think it was kind of like a den type room. And yeah.
MS. POMERANTZ: Was this back at the ranch?
ANNIE FARMER: Back at the ranch, yeah. Sorry.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you know how to give foot massages at that point?
ANNIE FARMER: No, I'd never been shown how to do that.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Epstein have on his feet during the massage?
ANNIE FARMER: He was not wearing any socks or anything; it was just his -- his bare feet.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you know how to give him a massage?
ANNIE FARMER: I just -- you know, I watched what she was doing. And she instructed me, you know, you pull back his big toe, rub this part of his foot, you know. And so I did what she told me.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did Epstein do while you were rubbing his feet?
ANNIE FARMER: He seemed, you know, to be enjoying it. He sort of made like groaning noises like he was -- it felt good to him.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you feel while you were rubbing his feet?
ANNIE FARMER: I felt very uncomfortable. I did not want to be touching his feet. And also just the whole situation made -- I wanted to stop and I was hoping it would be over quickly.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell ask you about your experience with massages during this trip?
ANNIE FARMER: She asked me if I'd ever had a professional massage and, you know, talked about what a lovely experience it was and how enjoyable it was to get a massage.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did Maxwell do next?
ANNIE FARMER: She said that, you know, she wanted me to have that experience, and she would be happy to give me a massage. And so encouraged me to say that, yes, okay, I would get a massage from her.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Maxwell give you a massage?
ANNIE FARMER: She did.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where in the house did Maxwell give you a massage?
ANNIE FARMER: My best recollection is that she set up a table in the room where I was staying.
MS. POMERANTZ: You said she set up a table. Can you describe the table.
ANNIE FARMER: It was, I think, a standard kind of massage table that's portable that has the legs that, you know, can be extended and has padding on top.
MS. POMERANTZ: What were you wearing during the massage?
ANNIE FARMER: Nothing.
MS. POMERANTZ: Why did you -- why were you wearing nothing during the massage?
ANNIE FARMER: She told me to get undressed.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you say "she," who are you referring to?
ANNIE FARMER: I'm sorry. Maxwell.
MS. POMERANTZ: What happened during the massage?
ANNIE FARMER: She, you know, said to get undressed and lay under the sheet on the massage table. And I did. And then she, you know, started rubbing my body and rubbing my back and my legs. And while she's doing this, she's just making -- you know, making small talk. And then at some point in the massage she had me roll over so I was laying on my back.
MS. POMERANTZ: And what happened once you were laying on your back?
ANNIE FARMER: She pulled the sheet down and exposed my breasts and started rubbing on my chest and on my -- on my upper breasts.
MS. POMERANTZ: When she touched your breasts, what was your reaction?
ANNIE FARMER: I mean, once she pulled down the sheet, I felt like kind of frozen; because I knew that that was very -- just, it didn't make sense to me that that would happen, and I was surprised. And, you know, I just wanted to -- badly to get off of the table and have this massage be done.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who was present during the massage?
ANNIE FARMER: It was Maxwell and I. But the door to the room was open. And I was fearful, especially at that moment, that Epstein -- I just had the sense that he could see me. But I don't have a memory of him standing nearby or of seeing his face, but I just -- I had this sense that he might be able to.
MS. POMERANTZ: What else, if anything, happened during your weekend in New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: I guess the other memory that stands out the most is being in bed in the morning, and suddenly Epstein kind of opening my door and sort of bounding into the room in this sort of playful way and saying that he wanted to cuddle. And so he climbed into bed with me and kind of laid behind me and reached his arms around me and he pressed his body into me.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you want to cuddle with Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you tell him you did not want to cuddle with him?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: Why not?
ANNIE FARMER: I was very aware at that time that I was, you know, very isolated; that, you know, I was on this ranch with these two people and, you know, no one's safe for a great distance. And so I just had thought, like, I just need to get through this and then it will be fine. And so I just -- you know, I didn't say anything.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did Epstein cuddle you?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you explain what happened.
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah. He just -- you know, as I said, he kind of had his arms around me and I felt, again, kind of frozen. And then I thought I have to have an excuse to get out of this. And so I just said I needed to go to the bathroom. And it was in my bedroom area and there was a bathroom near. And so I just made the excuse and got out of bed and went into the bathroom and shut the door.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did you do while you were in the bathroom?
ANNIE FARMER: I just, you know, waited. And I don't remember how long I was in there, you know, I just remember thinking, like, I wanted to be in there long enough that this hopefully situation would be over.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was your reaction to the series of events in New Mexico that you've just testified about culminating with Epstein getting into bed with you?
ANNIE FARMER: My reaction at that time?
MS. POMERANTZ: At that time.
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, I just wanted -- I wanted the weekend to be over. I felt very -- like, I thought I had been brought there because of, you know, one set of reasons; like, I thought that he was interested and they were both interested in me as, like, a student; that they may want to help in an academic way. So I was trying to be sort of impressive in that way and talk about things that they wanted to hear about. And all these experiences made me feel that they had a very different interest in me. And so it was extremely kind of disorienting and I just was wanted to be done with it.
MS. POMERANTZ: What, if anything, did you discuss with Maxwell during your last day on the ranch in New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: What I remember about that, just this final conversation was that I was sort of trying to reengage with her around, like, this academic stuff. And I had brought, like, three by five note cards for this paper that I was writing where I had little, like, facts on them. And we were sitting outside on what seemed like kind of a deck area. And I was going through them and I was trying to get her to talk to me about them, I think, in a way, like, to make myself feel better, like, maybe they did care about that. And she just seemed like very disinterested and kind of like, you know, she didn't care.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you say good-bye to Epstein and Maxwell before you left New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Where did you go when you left New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: I flew home to Phoenix.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you get to the airport?
ANNIE FARMER: I think it was the same driver, but a driver drove me back to the airport.
MS. POMERANTZ: How did you fly home to Arizona?
ANNIE FARMER: Commercially by myself.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who picked you up from the airport?
ANNIE FARMER: My mom.
MS. POMERANTZ: You testified earlier about your journal. Did you write in your journal about your trip to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: Why not?
ANNIE FARMER: I think I just really didn't want to think about it; and, you know, writing would be a way of, like, me having to think more about what had happened. And I just wanted to put it out of my mind.
MS. POMERANTZ: You testified earlier about boots that Maxwell and Epstein purchased for you during a shopping trip in New Mexico. You said that you had kept the boots; is that right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes. Yeah.
MS. POMERANTZ: Why did you keep the boots?
ANNIE FARMER: I think initially I just sort of got home and shoved them to the back of my closet. And then when I graduated from high school, my mom moved. And everything in my closet I just packed into boxes. And they were in her storage for a number of years. And then when I interviewed with agents about this in, I think, late 2006/early 2007, they asked me if I still had those, and I didn't know. So at some point I found them next time I visited my mom. And I held onto them for some time, hoping maybe, you know, they would want them. And then when that didn't seem to come to pass, I just thought, I live in Texas, now I have these boots, and I'm going to kind of reclaim them and use these boots.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you start wearing those boots?
ANNIE FARMER: I did wear those boots.
MS. POMERANTZ: I want to change topics. Where, if anywhere, did you go during the summer of 1996?
ANNIE FARMER: I went on a trip to Thailand and Vietnam.
MS. POMERANTZ: How long were you in Thailand and Vietnam?
ANNIE FARMER: For six weeks.
MS. POMERANTZ: What were you doing in Thailand and Vietnam?
ANNIE FARMER: It was like a cultural emerging trip/service trip. So we built like a community building, and we did some teaching in schools, and then just did some hiking and kind of fun things.
MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 103.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, do you recognize this?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, it's a photo of me on that trip to Thailand.
MS. POMERANTZ: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of your physical appearance during the summer of 1996?
ANNIE FARMER: It is.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 103 in evidence.
MS. MENNINGER: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: GX-103 is admitted. You may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 103 received in evidence)
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, how old were you at the time this photograph was taken?
ANNIE FARMER: I was 17.
MS. POMERANTZ: Had you turned 17 over the summer?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: And where was this photograph taken?
ANNIE FARMER: It was in Thailand.
MS. POMERANTZ: We can take that down, Ms. Drescher. Thank you.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who paid for your trip to Thailand and Vietnam?
ANNIE FARMER: Epstein.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you left Thailand and Vietnam, where did you go?
ANNIE FARMER: I went back to Phoenix.
MS. POMERANTZ: And when you got back, did you want to see Maxwell and Epstein again?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: At that point, how were you feeling about Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: I think, you know, again, I felt conflicted because I had had -- I had been on this trip, which is something I never could have done without, you know, Epstein's support. But I -- so I felt I should be grateful for that. But the experience that I had with Maxwell and Epstein in New Mexico was so uncomfortable that I didn't -- you know, I was very much hoping I would never have to be around them again. Then I felt sort of guilty about that because of -- you know, again, because they had paid for this trip.
MS. POMERANTZ: From that point on, did you have any contact with Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: I did not.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you told someone about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Who did you first tell?
ANNIE FARMER: I had a brief conversation with my mom just acknowledging that something uncomfortable had happened, but I didn't go into any details with her about that.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did you tell your mom?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll hear from you, counsel.
(At sidebar)
JUDGE NATHAN: Is this not a prior consistent statement that was litigated or discussed?
MS. POMERANTZ: This is a prior consistent statement, your Honor.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I don't believe that we have impeached her yet or called her story into question in opening about this issue. So I'm a little -- I understand that eventually it may be, if I do impeach her.
JUDGE NATHAN: The opening questioned the veracity of all of the accusers.
MS. MENNINGER: Not on every point, your Honor. I mean --
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: Not that she was there, for example, or anything like that. So I don't believe that it's been opened, and I think it's just bolstering.
JUDGE NATHAN: Well, is the statement just that she's going to be there or what's -- what is the anticipated statement?
MS. MENNINGER: Actually, my reading of the discovery is that she told her mom, I wasn't raped. And so if that's what is planned to be elicited, that's going to be a problem for a lot of other reasons that have been litigated.
JUDGE NATHAN: Is that what she's going to say?
MS. POMERANTZ: My understanding, your Honor, of what she's going to say is that she didn't want to talk about it; that something had happened. There are times where she has used that word. In our several last meetings she has not used that word. But she has said, I didn't want to get into details with my mom. I told her something had happened.
MS. MENNINGER: The quote in discovery is, I told her I wasn't raped, and I don't want this to ruin my life. So I'm a little worried about the "rape" word being used by the witness in this context, especially because we've litigated extensively that consent and --
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the defense has put the memory of the witnesses, of the victims, at issue from the start at their opening, and they are incentives.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm overruling. It's an anticipated prior consistent statement based on the clear attack on the credibility of the allegations of all of the alleged victims. We'll see what comes. A statement that she wasn't raped is not suggesting that she was raped; that's suggesting the opposite.
MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, if I might add, it's the use of the word and knowing how inflammatory it is and the restrictions put on it to now allow them to even suggest, that is extremely loaded and extraordinarily prejudicial. This has nothing to do with the opening with regard to this witness at all, and it's extremely far afield.
MS. MENNINGER: I can tell your Honor we're not challenging the statements that she had a foot massage, a body massage, and so forth. So there may be some of the details of her memory that are off, but we did not put in to challenge that she had those contacts. That's why we worded the limiting instruction "the physical contact." And to use the word "rape," when she's above the age of consent --
JUDGE NATHAN: She's saying not raped. It's the opposite of raped. It's not raped.
MS. MENNINGER: Well, your Honor --
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow the question as a prior -- I'm overruling the objection because it's an anticipated prior consistent statement in which the credibility of all of the witnesses as to what occurred has been attacked. I don't think this needs to be sealed.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Not sealed.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court)
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, what did you tell your mom?
ANNIE FARMER: I had told my mom that I was not raped and I didn't want to talk about it.
MS. POMERANTZ: When did this conversation happen?
ANNIE FARMER: This was shortly after I returned from the trip from Thailand and Vietnam, so late summer of 1996.
MS. POMERANTZ: If I could just ask you to speak into the microphone.
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah. Sorry. Late summer of 1996.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you. Who else, if anyone, did you tell what had happened to you with Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: Later in that fall, I started dating someone named Dave Mulligan. And I talked to him at some point a little bit about what had happened at the ranch.
MS. POMERANTZ: When did you meet Dave?
ANNIE FARMER: I met him at prom, actually, my junior year; so earlier in the spring of 1996.
MS. POMERANTZ: And when did you start dating him?
ANNIE FARMER: In that fall, I think maybe September/October.
MS. POMERANTZ: And did you tell Dave about what had happened with Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you spoke with members of the media about your experiences with Epstein and Maxwell?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you speak with the media once or more than once?
ANNIE FARMER: More than one time.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when was the first time you spoke with the media?
ANNIE FARMER: In 2002.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you were interviewed by law enforcement agents about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: And approximately when was this?
ANNIE FARMER: In 2006 -- or late 2006/early 2007.
MS. POMERANTZ: During that interview, did you tell the FBI about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you tell the FBI that Maxwell had given you a massage?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you tell the FBI that Epstein got into bed with you?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: You said earlier that you wanted to reclaim the cowboy boots.
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. POMERANTZ: What do you mean by "reclaim"?
ANNIE FARMER: I think it was just, you know, obviously something I -- it was a dark memory, and I felt so taken advantage of by them both. And I think I was just a little older, and I just saw them as a symbol of, you know, this hard thing that happened to me; but that I could -- you know, by using them, it was some -- by using the boots, I mean, it was somehow like changing that, reclaiming it in some way.
MS. POMERANTZ: In the years after you spoke with FBI in late 2006 or early 2007, have you spoken with the media about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: I have.
MS. POMERANTZ: Were you interviewed on television?
ANNIE FARMER: I was.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you participate in other interviews?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when?
ANNIE FARMER: I believe -- well, I first spoke with another reporter, I think, in maybe 2016 off the record. And then later on the record in the summer of 2019. And I think then in the -- yeah, and then later into the fall.
MS. POMERANTZ: Were you paid for those interviews?
ANNIE FARMER: I was not.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you struggle with the decision to talk publicly about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Relevance, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you explain.
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah. I think most people probably can understand that it's not the kind of thing that you would want -- I mean, it sort of feels like a shameful memory and is not the kind of thing you want a lot of attention on. But at a certain point, I felt compelled because I, you know --
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Narrative, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. A. I wanted to -- if I could help there be any accountability or these people being stopped in some way, it felt like it was worth it, even if it was uncomfortable.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you were interviewed by law enforcement in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when was that?
ANNIE FARMER: That was in 2019, I believe, in the late summer/early fall.
MS. POMERANTZ: Since that time, have you been interviewed by the government?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately how many times have you met with the government?
ANNIE FARMER: I'd say approximately five or six times.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did there come a time when you sued Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Approximately when did you sue them?
ANNIE FARMER: That was, I believe, the fall of 2019.
MS. POMERANTZ: Was that before or after you had met with law enforcement in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: After.
MS. POMERANTZ: After you filed that lawsuit, did you participate in a victim compensation fund for victims of Jeffrey Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you remember what year that fund started accepting applications?
ANNIE FARMER: I believe that was in early 2020.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did you do as part of that fund?
ANNIE FARMER: I, with my attorneys, there was an application process. They interviewed me and they put together some materials about, you know, my story.
MS. POMERANTZ: How much money did the fund award you?
ANNIE FARMER: $1.5 million.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did that money come from the Estate of Jeffrey Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: It came, yeah, from the victims' compensation fund.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did your attorneys receive any portion of that award?
ANNIE FARMER: They did not.
MS. POMERANTZ: Why not?
ANNIE FARMER: They agreed to work with me pro bono.
MS. POMERANTZ: Has that money been wired to you already?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: And just to back up, when you said "pro bono," what do you mean by that?
ANNIE FARMER: I mean they have not received any of that money.
MS. POMERANTZ: As part of the settlement that you received from the fund, were you required to dismiss your lawsuit against Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: I was.
MS. POMERANTZ: To be clear, is your civil case over?
ANNIE FARMER: It is.
MS. POMERANTZ: Are you hoping or expecting to get any more money for what happened to you with Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: Based on your understanding, will the jury's verdict in this case affect the award that you received from the fund?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. POMERANTZ: Just to be clear, do you have any financial stake in the outcome of this trial?
ANNIE FARMER: I do not.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have one moment?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred)
MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Menninger.
MS. MENNINGER: Would your Honor like to take the morning break now or -- I'm happy to start.
JUDGE NATHAN: I think 15 minutes and then break.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. Sure.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: Good morning, Ms. Farmer. Sorry. Let me get the microphone.
ANNIE FARMER: Good morning.
MS. MENNINGER: When you were a junior in high school, you traveled to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You were 16 years old?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Your older sister lived in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, she did.
(Continued on next page)
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: She's about 10 years older than you?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, nine and a half.
MS. MENNINGER: She was 25 at the time?
ANNIE FARMER: I believe that's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You stayed with her while you were in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: I did. I stayed at her apartment.
MS. MENNINGER: She lived there?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Your sister is the one who communicated with you about your travel to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, I believe that is correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You flew out by yourself?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: That was not abnormal for you to travel out by yourself?
ANNIE FARMER: Well, I would travel sometimes with my younger sister to see my dad or my grandparents, not usually by myself.
MS. MENNINGER: When you spoke with law enforcement in September of 2019, you told them that you flew alone, which was not abnormal for you; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't recall saying that. But, as I mentioned, I did have to fly to see my dad because he lived across the country. So that's probably what I was referring to. Usually, though, my sister would be with me, my little sister.
MS. MENNINGER: But what you said was, you flew alone, which was not abnormal for you; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Asked and answered.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: If I could show you what's been marked as 3514-006, page 2 in the overflow photograph.
MS. MENNINGER: I think we can put that on the screen for counsel and the Court and the witness. The overflow paragraph at the top, if we could call that out. My screen went blank.
JUDGE NATHAN: I hit something.
MS. MENNINGER: Happens to all of us.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Williams will make it right.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. Mine is back.
JUDGE NATHAN: She made it better. Go ahead.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: What you told the government on that occasion is you flew alone which is not abnormal for you; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Asked and answered.
JUDGE NATHAN: You can ask if it refreshes.
MS. MENNINGER: Does looking at this report refresh your memory that you told the government, in September much 2019, that you flew alone which was not abnormal for you?
ANNIE FARMER: I see, yeah, that's what they noted. I'm assuming that was based on exactly as I've explained, that I would fly to see my family.
MS. MENNINGER: You didn't say anything about your little sister?
ANNIE FARMER: I guess not, but at that -- but what would happen.
MS. MENNINGER: It was your understanding that Mr. Epstein purchased your plane ticket for you to fly to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You understood Mr. Epstein to be Maria's boss; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You understood that he had been connecting her to people in the art world; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And she was 25; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You understood that he was very wealthy?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You understood or hoped that he might help get you into college; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: And pay for college, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you understood and hoped that he might help you pay for college; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: He did not pay for your college?
ANNIE FARMER: He did not.
MS. MENNINGER: You were planning to go away for the summer, correct, to an international trip?
ANNIE FARMER: I had hopes. I didn't have any plans at that point.
MS. MENNINGER: And you hoped that he might help pay for that trip; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Ghislaine Maxwell had no role in the logistics of your travel to New York; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: She did not fly you there?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't buy you a ticket to go here?
ANNIE FARMER: She did not.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't arrange for your travel?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't call your mother before you traveled to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: To New York, no.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't encourage you to travel to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: She did not.
MS. MENNINGER: She did not transport you to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You had never seen her before you came to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You had never talked to her before you came to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You didn't even know about her before you came to New York; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I'm not -- I don't recall whether I heard -- I think I may have, but I don't remember when I first learned about her.
MS. MENNINGER: The purpose of your trip was to visit your sister; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: And to meet Epstein, correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Well, you believed that Mr. Epstein purchased you a ticket for you to come see Maria in New York; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, that was part of the purpose.
MS. MENNINGER: You testified that you stayed with your sister at her apartment in the Village; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You did not stay at Mr. Epstein's home?
ANNIE FARMER: No, I did not.
MS. MENNINGER: You went to see several live performances while you were in town; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You went to see those with your sister?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, at least two of them, yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: Well, you went to see the Blue Man Group tubes; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: You went to see The Dutchess, a play; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, I think -- Blue Man Group, I don't think Maria was there for that, but yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: You went to stay in a ski cabin while you were here; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You stayed overnight there?
ANNIE FARMER: I think that's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: With your sister?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And with your sister's boyfriend and his brother were at that cabin; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You went shopping with your sister; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: You went to flea markets?
ANNIE FARMER: Uh-huh.
MS. MENNINGER: Thrift stores?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You went to see some bands with your sister?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You did all of those things on this trip in New York with your sister; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: She was with you, I think you said without the exception of perhaps Blue Man Group, she was with you the entire time; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Now, when you arrived in New York, Ghislaine Maxwell didn't pick you up at the airport?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't drive you anywhere while you were in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: No, I didn't see her during that trip.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't take you to any of these live performances?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't take you to see The Lion King, for example?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't take you shopping or to a ski cabin; right?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't take you to the movies?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't engage you in any conversation about your interests; right?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't offer to pay for your college or a trip in the summer; right?
ANNIE FARMER: She did not.
MS. MENNINGER: Didn't invite you to her home?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: Didn't give you champaign?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't buy you any clothing while you were in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: No preppy clothes or underwear; right?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: She simply was not here the entire time you were in New York; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: When you went to Epstein's house, you were there the whole time with your sister; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And it was there that Mr. Epstein spoke with you about college applications?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And discussed the college application process; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: He urged you to consider UCLA, I think it was?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: He talked to you about traveling abroad for the summer?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And how that might help your college applications?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You did ultimately go to an ivy league school; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And he surprised you with tickets to the Phantom of the Opera; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You said you were really excited about seeing the Phantom of the Opera; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I was.
MS. MENNINGER: It wasn't the first time you had seen it?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: You had seen it before?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, a friend invited me in Phoenix.
MS. MENNINGER: And it was better this time in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And, again, Ghislaine Maxwell wasn't a part of this conversation at Epstein's home; right?
ANNIE FARMER: She was not.
MS. MENNINGER: He didn't even mention her during this trip to his home; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That, I don't remember.
MS. MENNINGER: Well, you've spoken to the government a number of times; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You filed a civil lawsuit against Ms. Maxwell; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You submitted a claim to the Victims Compensation Fund; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And on none of those occasions have you said that Mr. Epstein's conversation with you at his home involved Ghislaine Maxwell; right?
ANNIE FARMER: It did not center on her. I don't remember if she was mentioned. I was trying to be accurate, yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: And if you didn't remember it, you didn't tell someone about it; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I did not, right.
MS. MENNINGER: You said, I believe, that you had visited with Mr. Epstein in the office of his home; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I remember there being a desk there. That's why I was assuming it was an office, but --
MS. MENNINGER: Just one moment.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: You were sitting at a desk; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You don't know whether his home was under renovation at the time you were there; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I believe it was.
MS. MENNINGER: And you believe this was at the beginning of 1996; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: As I said, late 1995, early 1996.
MS. MENNINGER: Well, your journal entry is dated January 7th; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you had just gotten back that day; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't know if it says that day. I know I recently returned.
MS. MENNINGER: And you thought you were there about a week; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I know I left after Christmas. So in that time.
MS. MENNINGER: If we could --
JUDGE NATHAN: We're at about a quarter after, Ms. Menninger. Should we break here?
MS. MENNINGER: Sure.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take our morning break. See you in about 15 minutes.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: The witness can step down while we break.
(Witness not present) Counsel, are there matters to take up before we break?
MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government, your Honor.
MS. MENNINGER: Not from me, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: See you in about ten minutes. Let me know if there is anything you need. Thank you.
(Recess) Matters to take up?
MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor.
MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government. Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: We'll bring back the witness and bring in the jury.
(Witness present) You can take your seat, Ms. Farmer. Thank you. You may remove your mask.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury present) Thank you so much, members of the jury. Ms. Menninger, you may continue with your cross examination.
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: I think when we left off, I was asking you about the dates of your trip.
MS. MENNINGER: If I could pull up Government Exhibit 603. As this is in evidence, your Honor, if I could also publish it to the jury.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. MENNINGER: So this is your journal; right?
ANNIE FARMER: It is, yes. I see what you're referring to.
MS. MENNINGER: In your journal, you gave a date of January 7th, 1996; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And what you wrote is, I got back from my trip to New York today?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, I was right on top of that journal entry, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: So it's now your memory that you got back on January 7th; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you had been there for about a week; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you had been there for a New Year's eve party, I think you said?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes. So it may be that the trip was a little longer than a week, because I'm seeing that date, yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: You know it was after Christmas of '95; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: We can take that down now, thank you.
MS. MENNINGER: Back in your time at Mr. Epstein's home, you believe it was under renovation while you were there; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: It may have been. I don't know. I have heard, but I don't remember from that time. I don't have a memory of it being under renovation, but I have heard that that's possible.
MS. MENNINGER: And I won't ask you where you heard that. I'm not asking you where you heard that.
ANNIE FARMER: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: You do know that there was no sexual activity that occurred while you were in Mr. Epstein's home; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: No one physically touched you there?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. Just to clarify which home we're talking about.
MS. MENNINGER: The New York home. Sorry. I thought that was the general topic here.
MS. MENNINGER: I'm talking about your time in the New York home that was possibly under renovation in early of 1996; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Sorry. What was the question about that?
MS. MENNINGER: I'm just orienting you to make sure you and I are talking about the same thing.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And I understand us to be talking about a time in early January 1996 when you were in Mr. Epstein's --
ANNIE FARMER: We're on the same page, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: -- New York home; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: No physical contact happened with you in that home?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: No one showed you any vibrators or massagers or anything like that in that home?
ANNIE FARMER: No.
MS. MENNINGER: And regardless, Ghislaine Maxwell was not present in Mr. Epstein's home while you were there; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You just talked about later going to the movie theater with Epstein and your sister during the same trip in New York in early 1996?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And Ghislaine Maxwell was not at the movie theater; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you talked about how he held your hand and rubbed your arm during that time in the movie theater; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: You told this to the FBI when you first met with them in relation to this case, in September of 2019; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And before you met with the FBI in September of 2019 and talked about the movie theater incident, you actually refreshed your memory by looking at your journal; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I had seen my journal, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you told them that you knew about this experience in the movie theater because you had looked at your journal and refreshed your memory; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I knew about the experience apart from that, but I had looked in my journal, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: What you told the prosecutors and the FBI in 2019, after telling them about the movie theater incident, is that you recalled your memory was refreshed of the incident by looking at your journal; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You had looked at the journal before you had the meeting with them in September of 2019?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you also refreshed your memory about the age you were when you took the trip by looking at your journal in 2019?
ANNIE FARMER: The age when I took the trip to New Mexico --
MS. MENNINGER: New York. New York. I'm sorry. I'm just talking about New York. I apologize if it wasn't clear.
ANNIE FARMER: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: You refreshed your memory about the age you were when you took the trip to New York by looking at your journal?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't remember saying that, but that's possible, yes. I mean, I knew it was in my junior year, so I don't think it would have been that hard for me to determine my age, but --
MS. MENNINGER: If I could have the witness and counsel look at 3514-006, page 1, third full paragraph about five lines down.
MS. MENNINGER: If you could just read that bottom half of that paragraph to yourself and tell me if that refreshes your memory about what you told the government in 2019.
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: She can look at it.
ANNIE FARMER: I'm sorry. Just read it but to myself, is that what you said?
MS. MENNINGER: Yes. And do you now recall that, in September of 2019, you had looked at your journal and refreshed your memory about the age you were when you took the trip before you met with the government then?
ANNIE FARMER: I think it -- the sentence is a summary. I don't know if that's what it -- that's not my interpretation of it. I see that they wrote a note about that. I think I knew I was 16, but I do know that I refreshed my memory about the experience by reading the journal.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay, clear. So we can take that down.
MS. MENNINGER: So we know that you refreshed your memory with the journal before you met with the government in September of 2019?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And we do that sometimes in this courtroom, too. I ask you to take a look at a document to refresh your memory because it helps people remember things that they wrote down a long time ago?
ANNIE FARMER: Of course.
MS. MENNINGER: And that's kind of what you had done before you met with the government in September of 2019; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I had had that journal with me, and so I had looked at it over the years, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And it helped you remember things from a long time ago?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Because you had written it down at the time; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: The government introduced some pages from that journal — I think it was 603 and 604, if memory serves — and they asked you a little bit about the journal on direct. I want to ask you a few more questions about the journal.
ANNIE FARMER: Oh, sure.
MS. MENNINGER: The cover of the journal —
MS. MENNINGER: Is that 603? Sorry. 601. If we could show that to counsel and the witness.
MS. MENNINGER: This is the cover of one of your journals from high school; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: It's the one that contains the pages that we've been looking at; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Now, you had several journals during high school; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, I did have other journals in high school.
MS. MENNINGER: You kept a journal throughout high school?
ANNIE FARMER: I know, like, I journaled when I went to Thailand in a separate journal on that trip. And I've had journals starting in elementary school, off and on, but again, I'm not very consistent, so I don't know that I journaled throughout high school. I think there were chunks of time that I would do it and then I would put it aside for a while.
MS. MENNINGER: And when you spoke to the government in September of 2019, you said throughout high school, you maintained a journal; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah. I'm trying to elaborate on that, yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: So you had this journal from around the time you went to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And then you had another journal from the time you went to Thailand in the summer?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah. That was only about that trip. Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And then you had other journals thereafter; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't recall if I journaled again in my senior year, but I know I journaled again in college and other times.
MS. MENNINGER: And this particular journal that we've been looking at and the government had you read from, you actually read from it during some of your media appearances; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: On a documentary or a 2020 special or something; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: And if I could ask to turn to page 2 of 603, I believe it is. I'm sorry. It's not. Let me back up. I would like to introduce Defendant's Exhibit AF1, which I think there was a page omitted from the government's exhibit. If I could confer with counsel.
JUDGE NATHAN: You want to indicate the identification mark and then pull it up for me, please.
MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. And I apologize, your Honor, if I may approach, I do have a paper binder I could give to the Court and the witness because it's multiple pages. There is just a different page than the government's exhibit.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. When you get back, the tab number and then, again, just the mark for identification.
MS. MENNINGER: AF1, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: And that's behind tab 1?
MS. MENNINGER: I think we have the 3500 material first, your Honor. So it's about halfway through the binder is when the AF exhibits start.
JUDGE NATHAN: I see. Thank you.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I've marked for identification AF1. What I would like to do is to draw the witness's attention --
JUDGE NATHAN: You want to direct the witness to a page?
MS. MENNINGER: Page 2, exactly, of that entry.
JUDGE NATHAN: Of AF1?
MS. MENNINGER: Yes.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: Do you see that entry?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Do you recognize this was another entry in the same journal?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And I don't believe it was in the government's exhibit, and that's why I'm asking to introduce this page, and I can work out with the government later if there is any redactions. I don't think any are appropriate, but --
MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: AF1 is admitted temporarily under seal so the government can propose any redactions.
(Defendant's Exhibit AF1 received in evidence)
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you. This page 2 is actually is an entry that you made before you went to New York; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And it doesn't have a date on it?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: But you're describing your excitement at going to see your sister in New York; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: And you're describing your excitement about meeting Epstein; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Right. Maria, I'm excited about getting this ticket that he bought me, yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: And you refer to him --
MS. MENNINGER: Could we publish to the jury that page. Is that a problem?
MS. POMERANTZ: No, not at all.
MS. MENNINGER: If we could publish to the jury that page, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: Do you have it on paper?
MS. MENNINGER: I don't think that the government thinks that there is any proposed redactions to this page.
JUDGE NATHAN: Let's just give them a minute.
MS. MENNINGER: Of course.
JUDGE NATHAN: And if not, we can unseal it.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, as long as we're referring to just page 2, then the government does not believe any redactions are necessary. So it can be published.
JUDGE NATHAN: Why don't we do that. Why don't we make page 2 AF1.
MS. MENNINGER: That's fine.
JUDGE NATHAN: Page 2 of what I'm looking at will be now marked as AF1 and, without objection, I'll admit AF1, which is only page 2. Let me just give the Bates that's at the bottom. You want to just give that --
MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. It's Bates labeled AFarmer10472.
JUDGE NATHAN: That is the single page that I'm admitting as AF1. And no objection to it being published?
MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may publish.
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: So this is, I think as we just said, an entry that you made in the same journal before you went to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: So it's your handwriting, et cetera?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You referred to Epstein as Maria's boss; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You didn't use his name at that point in time?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you described that you were hoping that he might help pay for your college; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you were hoping that he might help you get into college; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you didn't want to get your hopes up because you might be disappointed?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And that's sort of what you had written down before you went to New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Nothing in there about Ghislaine Maxwell?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And now we'll use the Government Exhibit 603, which picks up, I believe, on the next entry that we have.
JUDGE NATHAN: And that's a public exhibit?
MS. MENNINGER: Right.
MS. POMERANTZ: That's correct, your Honor.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: And I think we looked at this just a moment ago?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you can look at it on your screen now.
ANNIE FARMER: It's a little easier to read.
MS. MENNINGER: You can put that down. Thank you. And as we discussed, this is the first entry that you made when you got back from New York; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And this is the entry in which you talked about going to Phantom of the Opera?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And going to Mr. Epstein's home; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You called the Phantom of the Opera the best night of your trip; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You talked about meeting Maria's boyfriend and so forth in this same entry; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You talked about going cross country skiing at some point during the trip?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: On the next page, if we could.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, can we take this down for just a moment, please. If I can just have a moment to confer with defense counsel?
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes.
(Pause)
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, there is a bit of a disagreement about the redactions, but I don't want to hold up the presentation for the jury. So we can take that up later.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sure.
MS. MENNINGER: But I do want to ask the witness a couple of questions. So if I could direct her attention to what we have marked as AF1, and it's going to be page 4 of that exhibit.
JUDGE NATHAN: We have a terminological issue, because that was originally AF1, but we just admitted the one page as AF1. How about this, we'll go back, I'll admit under seal, again, temporarily, AF1 as a seven-page document.
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Recognizing there is overlap between some of the pages of the AF1 and Government Exhibit 603.
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. We can work that out.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Pomerantz.
MS. POMERANTZ: That's fine, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Let me just talk to the record for a moment. I retract that I'm only admitting the single page of AF1 as AF1. Instead, I am temporarily admitting under seal a seven-page document marked as AF1. Counsel will work out limited redactions. We'll turn that into a public document with limited redactions. Go ahead.
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: So I just wanted to ask you, in this journal entry, you wrote about going to a ski cabin and going cross country skiing; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah. I'm sorry. I think I got lost. Are we back in the binder now?
MS. MENNINGER: You can testify from memory right now. If you need to look at it, we can show it to you again.
ANNIE FARMER: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: But you, I believe, would recall that you wrote about going to a cross country skiing cabin?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you also wrote about going to see a movie or watching a movie while you were in that cabin, and the name of the movie was Sleuth?
ANNIE FARMER: Okay. Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you talked about going to see bands and going to a bar and other things that you did during your trip?
ANNIE FARMER: Okay. Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Is that right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You recall that's in your journal entry?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You've reviewed that journal entry a few times; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And significantly, in this journal entry, you really talked about your emotions that you were feeling after you returned from your trip to New York; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You talked about how you had such a great time, it was really depressing to be home; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: The trip changed your whole outlook on life; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: You say you always feel that way when I get back from trips; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You had been on other trips?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: I think you mentioned that you felt similarly when you got back from Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You've been to Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: It was really overwhelming this time because you felt more independent and things along those lines; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: You also talked about how you felt really comfortable here in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you felt like you belonged here?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You hoped to live here some day?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And this was after your entire trip was over; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: You wrote this after you got back home; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: After the movie theater incident?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: You also had your impressions of Epstein recorded in this journal entry; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You found him down to earth and easy to talk to; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: In this journal entry, after you got back from New York, again, there is no mention of Ghislaine Maxwell; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And this, what we've been looking at, is only a portion of your January 7th journal entry; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: But you have no reason to believe Ghislaine Maxwell is mentioned in the rest of the entry that we don't have?
MS. MENNINGER: I want to talk about the next journal entry, which I believe is Government Exhibit 604.
MS. MENNINGER: And we may have the same issue, but I'll try to be sensitive to it, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Thank you.
MS. MENNINGER: This one is dated January 25th of 1996; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And that's about three weeks after the last one; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: And were there any entries between January 6th and January 25th?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't believe so.
MS. MENNINGER: And when you wrote this entry a few weeks later, you wanted to go back and fill in some details that you hadn't mentioned the first time; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And that's when you wrote about go going to see a play called the Dutchess?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: The Blue Man Group and the flea market and that kind of thing?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You went to the Met; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And a pretty fun New Year's Eve party and the thrift stores?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And it was after your discussion about all of those things that you wrote about your experience in the movie theater; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: During your entire trip in New York, you didn't write about Ghislaine Maxwell in your journal; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you would agree with me that having been able to refresh your memory with these journal entries has brought back some of the details that you may not have remembered if you didn't have a journal entry; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You may not have remembered the Dutchess or --
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: What your emotions were; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: But having written them down in this journal, it's easy for you to now recall them?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, it helps with the frame of mind -- remind myself -- of the frame of mind.
MS. MENNINGER: In your journal entry related to the movie theater incident — and I think you talked about this on direct — you made a number of statements like, it wasn't weird, it wasn't that weird, probably normal, it's a little back and forth; is that fair?
ANNIE FARMER: Oh, yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: You even said to yourself, it sounds like I'm justifying it, but I'm not justifying it; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
(Continued on next page)
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: And as you sit here today, you now find Epstein's behavior in that movie theater weird?
ANNIE FARMER: I think I found it weird then too, which is why I used that word so many times. But I do now, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You said it was not weird, it was normal and fine, in your journal entry, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah. I also said it weirded me out.
MS. MENNINGER: And then you said, It's not a big deal. Right?
ANNIE FARMER: I did say that.
MS. MENNINGER: And "I really don't think it is a big deal." Right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: So you used both versions: It's weird, it's not weird. Right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: As you sit here today, you find it weird, right?
ANNIE FARMER: I still find it weird.
MS. MENNINGER: And at points in this journal entry, you did not find it weird, but at other points you did, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's what I wrote.
MS. MENNINGER: And that's based on your today looking back on it in hindsight; correct? You're looking back on your emotions on January 25th, 1996; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I am reflecting on that.
MS. MENNINGER: You have your memories today, and you have the emotions you wrote down in January of 1996, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And your memories today are colored by hindsight; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Of course.
MS. MENNINGER: And you are colored in your memories of hindsight by what happened to you in New Mexico, for example?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
MS. MENNINGER: Right?
ANNIE FARMER: Does that affect how I perceive what happened to me in New York?
MS. MENNINGER: Yes.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, I'm sure it does in some ways.
MS. MENNINGER: Right. Because what may not have seemed weird in one moment, if it happened again with him, may become weirder, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: In your journal entry, after describing the movie theater incident, you continue on to talk about mundane teen activities, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And we don't need to talk about your friends' names, but you started talking about, excuse me, who you were friends with or --
ANNIE FARMER: Very high school stuff, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. And you even said you were in a pretty happy place at the time you wrote this entry; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I did say that.
MS. MENNINGER: And you were excited for the future, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And for the avoidance of all doubt, there is no entry in any of your journals that relate to Ghislaine Maxwell?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And that is true with respect to a journal you wrote in Thailand after you claimed the New Mexico event happened; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And that's true if you had other journals from your senior year; no mention of Ghislaine Maxwell, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: 604 that we looked at with the government is the last journal entry that you gave to the government for this case; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Sorry. Should I pull up the binder?
MS. MENNINGER: Actually, if Ms. Drescher could pull up 604. I just don't have that version in our computer.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. It is admitted, so you may publish, please, Ms. Drescher. Thank you.
MS. MENNINGER: If we could go to the next page. Thank you, Ms. Drescher. And then is the back cover admitted? Sorry, your Honor.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: Is this page that you see here in front of you from 604 the last page of your journal that you gave to the government in connection with this case?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't recall, but if it's entered that way, then yes, I'm assuming it is.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: We could pull up AF-1, page 7, just for counsel and the witness.
JUDGE NATHAN: That's fine.
MS. MENNINGER: I believe it's noncontroversial. And the government has a copy of it now.
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor, we have a copy.
MS. MENNINGER: So this is the back of the journal, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you gave a copy of this picture of the back of this journal to the government?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And so that's what we have.
ANNIE FARMER: Oh, yeah. Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: We've covered everything that you gave to the government in relationship to this journal?
ANNIE FARMER: Okay. Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: So we have photocopied pages from within the journal?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: We have a picture of the front of the journal, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And a picture of the back of the journal?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Just to be clear, the government has never received a physical copy of the journal; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You have never given that to them?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: So since you -- these are all the pages we have; you do not have a journal entry that reflects your trip to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: We don't have "I'm excited about going to New Mexico," right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: We don't have "I'm excited to go to New Mexico to see Maria's boss" or something like that?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: We don't have how we felt when you got home from New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: There's no journal entries about New Mexico.
MS. MENNINGER: And where is the physical journal right now?
ANNIE FARMER: It's in the City of New York.
MS. MENNINGER: Without a journal entry from the New Mexico trip, we can't confirm with a piece of paper who invited you there, right?
ANNIE FARMER: With a piece of paper? No.
MS. MENNINGER: Or why you were going, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, there's no journal and record of any of that.
MS. MENNINGER: There's no piece of paper that you know of, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Journal or otherwise, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: We don't have a document that tells us when you went, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And because we don't have an entry from after the trip to New Mexico, we can't tell with a piece of paper what happened to you while you were there; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Or who was there, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Or what you talked about while you were there?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: How you felt about the trip?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: Right? And because we don't have a piece of paper or a journal entry, it is harder for you to remember the events in the New Mexico trip versus the New York trip?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You've told the government it was harder for you to disaggregate discussions about those two trips?
ANNIE FARMER: I'm sorry, to disaggregate discussions with who?
MS. MENNINGER: You had discussions about going to New York with certain people, your sister, I think you said?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: You had discussions about going to New Mexico with people, I think you said, before you went?
ANNIE FARMER: Before I went.
MS. MENNINGER: Yes.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You said you spoke with Mr. Epstein on the phone; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: About going to Thailand. I don't remember about going to New Mexico.
MS. MENNINGER: You spoke to him between the time you went to New York and the time you went to New Mexico.
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You spoke with him on the phone?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You did not ever speak with Ghislaine Maxwell on the phone?
ANNIE FARMER: I did not.
MS. MENNINGER: And you spoke to your mother about going to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And when you were talking to the government about all these various conversations, you told them it was harder for you to disaggregate the discussions about those two different trips, right?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't recall saying that, but I -- I understand what you're saying.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. And you have very little memory of how the New Mexico trip was planned; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you have very little memory because you have no journal entries from that time period, right?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: I have not had a journal to help me refresh my memories of how that was planned.
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you. Now, you testified on direct that you believe you went in the -- to New Mexico in the spring of '96, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you also said you believe it was April of '96?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you're going off of your memory for that?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Because we don't have a journal entry, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And actually it's a bit of a reconstructed memory, right?
ANNIE FARMER: About the timeline?
MS. MENNINGER: Of when you went to New Mexico.
ANNIE FARMER: Certain things stand out that help me to remember what the timeline would have been, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. You remember certain things about the trip, like going to see Primal Fear, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And what you did is you got on the internet and researched when Primal Fear was released, right?
ANNIE FARMER: I remember going to see Primal Fear. And I did at some point check to make sure that that was -- when that came out. And that confirmed that, yes, that was the correct time that I had remembered.
MS. MENNINGER: You confirmed the time Primal Fear was released and then placed your memory of the trip relative to that date; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't think I would say it that way.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: I'd like to show the witness what we've marked for identification as AF-8.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, this is the first time we're seeing this, so I'd ask for just a moment to review.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Go ahead.
MS. MENNINGER: May I show AF-8 to the witness, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. MENNINGER: Can you please put it on counsel's screen.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: Ms. Farmer, you recall having email communications with a journalist?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And that journalist's name is Mike Baker?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: He works for The New York Times?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You gave an interview with Mr. Baker relative to your experiences; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: And before you did that, Mr. Baker had some emails where he was confirming certain dates with you?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And one of the communications Mr. Baker asked about is the timing of your trip to New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And he cited your recollection that it was in the spring?
ANNIE FARMER: Sorry. I just read the first part. I'm looking at the bottom.
MS. MENNINGER: If you look at the bottom full paragraph --
ANNIE FARMER: Oh, yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: -- does that refresh your memory --
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: -- he's asking you?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And he said he understood it was in the spring, maybe April, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you wrote him back and told him that you had looked up the release date of Primal Fear?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Right? And you told him it wasn't out until April 3rd, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you told him that you also had talked to some of your friends, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: About when prom was?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: And that was in late April, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And so after looking up Primal Fear and talking to your friends, you told him you're feeling pretty confident that it was April?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: So you took some memory fragments that you had, Primal Fear and prom, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you looked up things on the internet, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, I wanted to be accurate. I had just said the spring, and so I wanted to, you know, provide more detail.
MS. MENNINGER: And so you compared it to the release date of Primal Fear, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: You compared it to your friends' memories of when prom was, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And that led you to be pretty confident that the trip occurred in April of '96, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And that's how you reconstructed your memory that it was April of 1996?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: What are the grounds? One-word grounds.
MS. POMERANTZ: Just mischaracterization.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
MS. MENNINGER: Right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: You wanted to be accurate?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: So you checked it against dates and you checked it against other people's memories, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: That's how you make sure it's accurate?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
MS. MENNINGER: Right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's how I make sure --
MS. MENNINGER: Your memory is accurate.
ANNIE FARMER: In general?
MS. MENNINGER: In this case.
ANNIE FARMER: In this case that's what I did, yes. I said that, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Talking about things that happened 25 years ago, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: You also were trying to figure out or you were telling him about the dates of your trip to Thailand, Mr. Baker?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you were able to tell Mr. Baker the dates of your trip to Thailand because you always remember you went on your birthday?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you have pegged your memory of going to Thailand with your birthday, which was in early July?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And so you were able to remember the dates of your trip to Thailand by reference to your birthday?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you're sure that you went to Thailand in the summer of 1996, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And we can take that down now.
MS. MENNINGER: There would be records of you going to Thailand in the summer of 1996 presumably; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: What kind of -- I mean --
MS. MENNINGER: You traveled abroad.
ANNIE FARMER: I'm sure they are somewhere. This was before digital records, but --
MS. MENNINGER: You had a passport?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, yes, for sure.
MS. MENNINGER: You crossed borders?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, those records, yeah. I don't have those, but yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: You went with a school organization?
ANNIE FARMER: Global Roots, yeah; it was a nonprofit.
MS. MENNINGER: So presumably there are records somewhere that substantiate the date of your trip.
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: Can I have one moment, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred)
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: You talked on direct about the fact that you -- let me make sure I've got my quote accurate. You talked generally about once you got to New Mexico, that Ghislaine did not seem surprised to see you there.
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And that you felt more comfortable because she was there.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Originally, your sister Maria was going to accompany you on this trip to New Mexico; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't remember that.
MS. MENNINGER: Well, do you remember meeting with the FBI in 2006?
ANNIE FARMER: I do remember that meeting.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. And just as a side note, you, I think, testified on direct that you believed the meeting with the FBI was in either 2006 or 2007?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah. I had holiday decorations up, so I remember it was that late in the year.
MS. MENNINGER: Well, earlier you have said that you remembered it was 2007 because you remembered it being hot out. Do you remember that statement?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Time frame. You're talking about her testimony on direct?
MS. MENNINGER: Well, no, your Honor, I apologize.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: Let me be more clear.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: In past interviews, you were trying to reconstruct the date of your interview with the FBI, do you remember that? You were asked to talk about when that meeting was?
ANNIE FARMER: Do you remember what interview -- what --
MS. MENNINGER: Let me come back to it just to make sure I'm accurate. But, in any event, you spoke to them in 2006 or 2007 is your memory now?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And so if I could have the witness look at 3514-001.
MS. MENNINGER: And if you look at this document, does that refresh your memory about when your first meeting with the FBI was?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And that was in November of 2006?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And the actual interview was on November 15th, 2006 at the bottom of the page; correct?
JUDGE NATHAN: Can you make it larger please?
MS. MENNINGER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: The interview was on November 15th of 2006 at your home in Austin, Texas; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And then the date of the report was a couple of weeks later. If we could look at the top of the page. November 28th.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And so on page 2 of that document, in the second full paragraph, the last sentence of that paragraph, what you told the FBI in November of 2006 is that originally Maria was going to accompany Annie to New Mexico; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I see it says that.
MS. MENNINGER: And that's what you told the FBI in November of 2006; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't recall that, but I see that that's written here.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I would ask that the next sentence be read. It's for completeness of the record.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, that's what redirect is for.
JUDGE NATHAN: You can ask your next question.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: You don't recall telling the FBI in November of 2006 that originally Maria was going to accompany you to New Mexico; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: We can take it down.
MS. MENNINGER: You did meet with agents at your home in November of 2006; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Agent Kuyrkendall and Slater?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And they sat down and talked to you for some time; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: They did.
MS. MENNINGER: They were taking notes when they talked to you?
ANNIE FARMER: They were.
MS. MENNINGER: And they are FBI agents; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: They represented themselves to be?
ANNIE FARMER: They did.
MS. MENNINGER: And they apparently wrote a report about the interview, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And they wrote in their report that originally Maria was going to accompany you, right?
ANNIE FARMER: They wrote that, yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: We're going to break for lunch shortly, if this is a breaking point.
MS. MENNINGER: It's fine, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, we'll break for about an hour. See you then. Enjoy your lunch.
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Are there matters to take up before the break?
MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government.
MS. MENNINGER: Not from us, your Honor. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. We'll reconvene in 45. And you'll let me know if there's anything to take up. Thank you. Have a good lunch.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you.
(Luncheon recess)
(Continued on next page) AFTERNOON SESSION 1:30 p.m.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Matters to take up, counsel?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, just briefly from the government, my not amazing math skills, but I note that I think that the witness who's been on cross examination now for about the same amount of time that she was on direct examination, it would be helpful for scheduling purposes to know when we can expect to have the next witness ready.
MS. MENNINGER: I don't know, your Honor. An hour.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. And the other question, I just -- rather not a question, just one thing I wanted to flag. I believe that, on cross examination, the witness was asked some questions about hindsight bias, which I expect to be a subject of expert testimony, and this witness, as she testified earlier on direct examination, is a psychologist. I'm not saying that there is anything to take up at this moment, but before she had taken the stand and the parties had conferred, we were asked that she wasn't going to be -- we were asked by Ms. Menninger to make sure that she wasn't going to be testifying about things in that area. So I just wanted to flag that she is testifying as a lay witness and that she shouldn't be asked questions on cross examination that would be the subject of expert testimony. Again, I'm happy to take it up as it comes, but I just wanted to flag that for the Court.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I most definitely did not ask her about hindsight bias. I asked her about her impressions of situations factually in hindsight. Even when we litigated expert issues around hindsight bias, there was a clear distinction made between what is obvious to a lay juror as seeing things in hindsight versus currently. I did not use any of the expert language associated with hindsight bias. So I disagree with any characterization that that was somehow related to an opinion under 702.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Are there further questions in that regard?
MS. MENNINGER: There are not.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Pomerantz.
MS. POMERANTZ: That's fine. Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Anything else to take up?
MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government. Thank you.
MS. MENNINGER: Not from the defense. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: We can bring the witness back, please.
(Witness present) You may take your seat and you're welcome to remove your mask, please. Thank you. We can bring the jury back in.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Good afternoon, members of the jury. Hope you had a good lunch. Appreciate your continued attention, diligence, and patience. Ms. Menninger, you may continue with your cross examination. Ms. Farmer, I remind you, you are under oath. You may inquire.
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: Before you traveled from Arizona to New Mexico, I believe you testified you did not talk to Jeffrey Epstein about the trip to New Mexico; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: So, because you did not talk to him about the trip, Mr. Epstein did not tell you that Ms. Maxwell would be in New Mexico; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Mr. Epstein did not.
MS. MENNINGER: Mr. Epstein. I apologize. Thank you. Did not tell you Ms. Maxwell would be there?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you did not talk to Ms. Maxwell ever before you arrived in New Mexico; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: The information about the New Mexico trip came from your mother?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: As far as planning for the trip to New Mexico, you don't know how you got the ticket or things like that, the logistics?
ANNIE FARMER: How the ticket was delivered, no, I don't know.
MS. MENNINGER: When you arrived in New Mexico, you do not recall Ghislaine ever saying to you she knew you would be there; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't have a memory of her saying those words.
MS. MENNINGER: And you don't remember her saying anything to you about the travel or the trip; right?
ANNIE FARMER: About the actual, like, logistical travel?
MS. MENNINGER: Right.
ANNIE FARMER: I don't have a memory of that.
MS. MENNINGER: And that's consistent with her perhaps thinking that your sister was going to be coming with you; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You have no personal knowledge that Ghislaine made any of your travel plans; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I do not.
MS. MENNINGER: And you have no personal knowledge that she encouraged you to travel to New Mexico; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I do not.
MS. MENNINGER: Or enticed you to travel to New Mexico?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: Transported you to New Mexico?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow it.
ANNIE FARMER: Do I have personal knowledge that Maxwell -- sorry.
MS. MENNINGER: Ghislaine transported you to New Mexico.
MS. MENNINGER: You have no knowledge that she did; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: The trip that you took to New Mexico was from a Friday to a Sunday; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: That was over a weekend?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: It wasn't in the middle of the week?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: It wasn't Wednesday to Friday, for example?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you and your mother have discussed this and you both recall that it was over a weekend; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you told the government that you had talked with your mother about that topic?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you and your mother have the same memory of it being over the weekend?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You have seen flight logs that are held in connection with this case; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I do not recall seeing flight logs about this. Flight logs about me going to New Mexico?
MS. MENNINGER: I want to be very clear. You're not on any flight logs, to your knowledge; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't know of being on any flight logs.
MS. MENNINGER: You never told anyone that you traveled on Epstein's private plane?
ANNIE FARMER: No. Sorry. I was confused.
MS. MENNINGER: Right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You and I have to be careful not to speak over one another. I will try. You have no reason to believe you were on a flight log related to Mr. Epstein's private plane; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: Because you never traveled on Mr. Epstein's private plane; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Have you ever reviewed the flight logs related to Mr. Epstein's private plane in connection with anything?
MS. MENNINGER: So you don't know whether there is a flight log entry showing either Ghislaine Maxwell or Jeffrey Epstein traveling to New Mexico over a weekend in April of 1996; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I do not.
MS. MENNINGER: While you were at the ranch, there were other people there, I believe you testified?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: There was a driver that took you to and from the airport?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: There were other ranch hands working there?
ANNIE FARMER: There were.
MS. MENNINGER: There was actually, I think you did not mention on direct a chef who was present; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I -- I don't have a lot of memories of that.
MS. MENNINGER: You don't recall a chef who made meals for you while you were at the ranch?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't recall a person doing that, but that makes sense to me, that there was a chef there.
MS. MENNINGER: If I could refresh your memory by having you look at 3514-001, and this is the same 2006 document we looked at earlier, page 3.
ANNIE FARMER: Is this in the binder?
MS. MENNINGER: We're going to show it to you on the screen because it will be easier than you flipping to it. But if you want to see the whole document, let us know. So if we can look at the second full paragraph, in other words the last paragraph on that page and call that out. If you could take a look just at this paragraph, Ms. Farmer, and see if this refreshes your memory about a chef.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And this is --
ANNIE FARMER: Sorry.
MS. MENNINGER: And this is from your conversation with the FBI in 2006?
ANNIE FARMER: Right. I still don't have, like, an image in my mind of the chef, but I see that that is a part of the notes from that interview, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And so, understanding all of this is taking place a long time ago, is it your belief that, in 2006, you had a memory of a chef preparing dinner for all three of you?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a minute. Overruled.
MS. MENNINGER: You may answer. Do you want me to rephrase it?
ANNIE FARMER: I think I got it. Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: As you sit here now, you believe that, in 2006, you had a memory of a chef who prepared a meal for all three of you?
ANNIE FARMER: That's what I'm taking from reading this.
MS. MENNINGER: But you don't have that memory today?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: We can take that down. Thank you.
MS. MENNINGER: There were other people on the ranch that were working there; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You don't have a memory of their names or things like that?
ANNIE FARMER: I do not.
MS. MENNINGER: Their faces?
ANNIE FARMER: Not really. I mean, I have a little better image in my mind of, like, the ranch hand I was talking about, but I don't -- I couldn't identify him.
MS. MENNINGER: During your involvement with this case, the government has never shown you photographs of people who worked on the ranch to see if that refreshed your memory; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Not that I recall.
MS. MENNINGER: So you don't have a refreshed memory about the people that worked on the ranch?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: You testified on direct that there was a small residence that you were staying in at the ranch?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: The ranch is a large piece of land; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right. Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: When you referred to the ranch, you're talking about the large piece of land?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And on that large piece of land, I think you testified there was a movie set that you visited, an old movie set?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And there was a small residence and that's where you stayed?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: You did not stay at the big, glorious Zorro Ranch that Mr. Epstein owned later; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You did not see the big, glorious Zorro Ranch while you were there; right?
MS. MENNINGER: And you certainly didn't stay in the big, glorious Zorro Ranch while you were there; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I did not.
MS. MENNINGER: You've seen those photos on news accounts since then; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I've seen a couple photos of that, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And so that big, huge mansion-like place is not what you saw?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And it's not where you stayed?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: So if another witness said that they saw a big, glorious ranch in '94, '95, that's inconsistent with your memory of the buildings on the ranch?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You have no memory of a big glorious mansion on the ranch?
ANNIE FARMER: I know there were other buildings, as I said, but I don't have much memory about what the others were because we weren't spending time in them.
MS. MENNINGER: You took a tour of the whole ranch while you were there; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I took a tour out to the movie set. It was more of an outdoor -- as I said, we were seeing the horses and we were seeing the movie set.
MS. MENNINGER: No one took you on a tour by a place under construction?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't -- I have no memory of that.
MS. MENNINGER: You went on a shopping trip that you talked about on direct examine; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You went to a natural grocery store?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You went to a western wear store?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: That's where Epstein bought you cowboy boots?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: I don't think you mentioned on direct, but you also went horseback riding while you were on the ranch; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That does sound familiar, yes. That did happen.
MS. MENNINGER: Well, you actually spent a significant amount of time horseback riding while you were at the ranch?
ANNIE FARMER: A significant amount of time?
MS. MENNINGER: Horseback riding while were you at the ranch.
ANNIE FARMER: Is that a question?
MS. MENNINGER: Yes. Did you spend a significant amount of time horseback riding while were you at the ranch?
ANNIE FARMER: I wouldn't say significant. I don't remember going on more than one occasion.
MS. MENNINGER: If I could direct the witness's attention to 3514-001, page 2, the last paragraph on that page. This, again, is from the 2006 interview.
MS. MENNINGER: What you relayed to the FBI agents in 2006 is that you spent a significant amount of time horseback riding on the ranch; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's this document, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: That the FBI took notes of in 2006?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you told them that right after you told them about buying cowboy boots?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you told them that right after you told them about going shopping at the store for the natural food products; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: So you went shopping at the store, you went and bought cowboy boots, and then you went horseback riding?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: For a significant amount of time?
ANNIE FARMER: That's what this says, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you needed the cowboy boots to go horseback riding --
ANNIE FARMER: Horseback riding --
MS. MENNINGER: Right --
ANNIE FARMER: I mean, you can go horseback riding without cowboy boots, but I'm sure that was the purpose, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: I want to talk about the boots a little bit more. You said Epstein bought you those boots; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you kept the boots; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You kept them for 25 years?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Quarter of a century; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you chose to wear the boots?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You wore them a lot?
ANNIE FARMER: In more recent years, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: We'll talk about that. At some point in the course of this case, you handed those boots over to the government; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: That actually happened earlier this year?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: The FBI agent came to your house and picked up the boots from you there in Texas; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: That was in or about June 29th?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: I would like to have the witness identify what we would mark for identification as AF9. I believe an agent or detective has those boots. If they could be handed to the witness.
JUDGE NATHAN: Showing the witness what's been marked for identification as AF9.
MS. MENNINGER: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: Ms. Farmer, do you know what's in the bag?
ANNIE FARMER: I do.
MS. MENNINGER: What is it?
ANNIE FARMER: Cowboy boots.
MS. MENNINGER: Are those the boots that Mr. Epstein bought you?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Could you remove them from the bag, please.
JUDGE NATHAN: Are you moving them?
MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. May I move for the admission of AF9?
MS. POMERANTZ: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: AF9 are admitted.
(Defendant's Exhibit AF9 received in evidence)
MS. MENNINGER: So those boots are in your size; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I think they're a little smaller than my current size, but yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And those are the same boots that you recall having been purchased in 1996; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And fair to say that the heels are worn down on the boots?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: Fair to say that the toes of the boots are pretty well scuffed; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And the leather looks like it's been worn a couple times; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: Now, you testified on direct that you reclaimed the boots; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you said that you reclaimed them after the government and you spoke in 2006?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: So in 2006, you knew that the boots were evidence of your interactions with Mr. Epstein; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And the government didn't ask you for them then?
ANNIE FARMER: They asked if I had them.
MS. MENNINGER: And what did you tell them?
ANNIE FARMER: I wasn't sure.
MS. MENNINGER: And you later found them?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: And you did not send them to the FBI when you found them; right?
ANNIE FARMER: No. At the time I had them, it didn't seem there was further -- the case did not seem to be developing.
MS. MENNINGER: So you did not --
ANNIE FARMER: I did not send them to them.
MS. MENNINGER: And you chose to wear the evidence of your contact with Mr. Epstein; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: And the first time you've told anyone about this reclaiming of the boots is in court today; correct?
MS. MENNINGER: Well, you've met with the government, I think you said five or six times; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you've never told the government that you reclaimed the boots by wearing them after 2006; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I believe that we have spoken about that. I mean -- I don't know if I used the term "reclaim," but that I explained why they were not used previously and then I did wear them.
MS. MENNINGER: I'll raise this under Rule 16 later, your Honor.
MS. MENNINGER: So you believe you've told that to the government?
ANNIE FARMER: I believe that I -- that part that I just said, yes, that I did not wear the boots and then I did wear the boots.
MS. MENNINGER: And you wore them a lot?
ANNIE FARMER: I mean, because that's the general term. I didn't wear them to work or things, but I did wear them when I would go two-stepping.
MS. MENNINGER: So you went dancing in the boots that Mr. Epstein bought for you?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: To the point where the heels are worn down and the toes are scuffed; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You can put that back in the bag. If it's in your way, I can come move it. If it's okay up --
ANNIE FARMER: No, it's --
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you. We talked a little bit about this conversation you had with the agents in 2006, and I believe you testified that you recall having Christmas lights up?
ANNIE FARMER: I said holiday decorations. I was selling some holiday products and I remember having them out when the agents came.
MS. MENNINGER: Just one moment. Your Honor, after the government has had a chance to look at it, I would like to show the witness what's been marked as AF10.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: Has the government had a chance?
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor, and we object to this.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll hear from you.
(Continued on next page)
(At the sidebar)
JUDGE NATHAN: I think what I'm looking at is an email from August of 2019, in which she recounts to the New York Times reporter that she thinks when they came — meaning the FBI agents — it was in spring-summer of 2007. Grounds.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, this is a collateral matter. She's been testifying about the interview itself, but there is no grounds to bring in extrinsic evidence on this matter with the date of the interview itself.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, my point is simply that she refreshed her memory about when the meeting was by talking to her husband and thinking about other points, like it was hot and sunny. She did testify that it was --
JUDGE NATHAN: But what's in issue is her memory of when she met with the FBI agents? What does that matter?
MS. MENNINGER: It's her memories now of things that she -- yes, about things that happened a decade ago, which, by inference, goes to the strength of her memory about things that happened in '96.
JUDGE NATHAN: So the theory is anything testing her memory from years ago is relevant.
MS. MENNINGER: I wouldn't go that far, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: This is two steps removed and I'll sustain.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court)
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained, 401 and 403. Go ahead.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: I want to talk about the incident in the movie theater in New Mexico.
ANNIE FARMER: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: You testified that Epstein held your hand in the movie theater in New Mexico; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And it was, in your words, more blatant than in New York?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: You don't actually know that Ghislaine Maxwell saw Epstein holding your hand; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't.
MS. MENNINGER: You just said she was present on the other side of him?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And afterwards, she didn't say anything to you about it; right?
ANNIE FARMER: She did not.
MS. MENNINGER: She did not say, hey, were you holding his hand or anything like that?
MS. MENNINGER: In the movie theater, there was no touching of your breasts?
MS. MENNINGER: There was no touching of your genitalia or private parts?
MS. MENNINGER: I want to talk to you about the foot massage that you described on direct.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You said that Ms. Maxwell -- Ghislaine was massaging one of Jeffrey's feet; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And she gave you instructions on how to massage the other foot; right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And at the time, you do not remember the specifics of what Epstein was saying during the foot massage; right?
ANNIE FARMER: No, I don't.
MS. MENNINGER: You don't remember it going beyond the massaging of his foot; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you do not remember the foot massage being sexualized; right?
ANNIE FARMER: I guess I would consider all of that sexualized. I don't -- it was not -- they were not touching my private body parts and I was not touching his.
MS. MENNINGER: If I could have the witness look at 3514-12. I'll just show the first page to orient you in the upper right-hand corner. This is an interview in May --
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
MS. MENNINGER: I don't know how to orient the witness to the time, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow you to -- it's been expanded now, so she can look at the document.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: You recall speaking to the government in May of 2020; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right. Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: May 9th of 2020; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you were there with some prosecutors and FBI agents; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Don't remember if this was in person or over the phone, but I remember having a communication, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And your attorney, Ms. McCauley, was also there?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: If I could direct your attention to the second page, there is a section three-quarters of the way down, a paragraph. If we can call out that section that has a label. If I can have you take a look at these notes.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: What you told the government on that occasion is you do not remember it, meaning the foot massage, being sexualized; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I see that that is the note, that that's how it was described. I would say, just as what I said a minute ago, is that, in my mind, all of this was sexualized to some degree, but it did not go to touching my private body parts or me touching his.
MS. MENNINGER: Ms. Farmer, what you told the government is you do not remember the foot massage being sexualized. Yes or no?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Asked and answered.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: I don't think I got an answer to the yes or no.
JUDGE NATHAN: You did, and then the witness elaborated, and that's permissible, and the question has been asked and answered. So, next question.
MS. MENNINGER: The notes say you do not remember --
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You said a minute ago that the notes say you do not remember it being sexualized?
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You also do not remember the specifics of what Mr. Epstein was saying during the foot massage; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And that was in May of 2020; right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: I want to talk about the full body massage that you described.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You testified on direct that you had nothing on during that massage?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: I want to direct your attention to what's been marked as AF8.
JUDGE NATHAN: The government has it?
MS. MENNINGER: Yes, we spoke about it earlier in this cross examination, your Honor. I gave it to you earlier in the cross examination.
(Continued on next page)
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: If I could direct your attention to the paragraph that's third from the bottom, begins with I.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, objection. This is not inconsistent.
MS. MENNINGER: What? I can't hear.
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Just a minute. Let me read it. Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: I did not hear the basis for the objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Not a prior inconsistent statement. I've ruled, Ms. Menninger. Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: I'm not allowed to ask about this document at all?
JUDGE NATHAN: You can ask the next question, but what you just drew to I've sustained.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: I draw your attention to the second paragraph from the top.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And while you testified on direct that you had nothing on during the massage, what you told Mr. Baker from The New York Times --
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment.
MS. MENNINGER: -- is that --
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment, please. There's an objection. You'll pause until I rule. Did you not hear it?
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor --
JUDGE NATHAN: Did you not hear it?
MS. MENNINGER: I did not hear the objection. I'm sorry, I can't hear from in here.
JUDGE NATHAN: I understand. We'll make sure -- Ms. Pomerantz, you'll speak loudly into the mic because it is difficult to hear in the box, all right?
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. All right. I will overrule. You may ask your question.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: What you told Mr. Baker from The New York Times in August 2019 is that you were not wearing a bra during the massage, that is clear in your memory; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And what was not clear in your memory in August of 2019 is whether you had your underwear on; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: What I remember saying is that she asked me to undress and --
MS. MENNINGER: I'm asking you about the 29th.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may answer.
ANNIE FARMER: That's the conversation I remember having with Mike Baker, is saying that Maxwell asked me to undress, and I did so. And I remember very clearly -- because the part of my body that was exposed during the massage was my breast. That was very clear in my memory that that was exposed.
MS. MENNINGER: You were not clear in your memory whether you had your underwear on; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I was not clear. You're saying in 2019, when I spoke with Mike Baker, I was not clear in my memory if I had my underwear on. I said that I remember her asking me to undress. I don't remember her saying whether or not I could leave my underwear on. And but I do remember for sure that my breasts were exposed.
MS. MENNINGER: When you spoke to Mike Baker, you told him you were unsure if you had your underwear on; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Overruled. I'll allow the question. You may answer.
ANNIE FARMER: Okay. Sorry, can you say it one more time?
MS. MENNINGER: When you spoke with Mike Baker of The New York Times, you said that you were unsure if you had your underwear on during the massage; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, I said that this -- I remember very clearly part of my body being exposed. And I don't remember 100 percent if my underwear was on; that my best recollection is that I was undressed.
MS. MENNINGER: And today you've testified that you had nothing on during the massage.
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: So between 2019 and today, you now have a memory that you did not have your underwear on; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: My best recollection, as I've said, is that I was undressed. When he asked me further, I tried to clarify to him that it was a very clear memory of me not having my top on; that the other part was not as clear because that part of my body was not exposed.
MS. MENNINGER: And you were clear you didn't have a bra on, that was clear in your memory?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: That's what you told him?
ANNIE FARMER: That is what I told him.
MS. MENNINGER: You've told this jury you didn't have your underwear on, right?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You testified on direct that Ghislaine massaged your chest and upper breast; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: In the area of your pectoral muscles; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, I guess that's all part of the breast, right?
MS. MENNINGER: Ghislaine did not touch your nipples?
ANNIE FARMER: She did not touch my nipples.
MS. MENNINGER: She did not touch your nipple area, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: She did not massage that part of your breast; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, that's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And the part that she massaged is the part that was exposed; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: My entire breast was exposed.
MS. MENNINGER: You don't have a journal entry about that; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You have no written recollection of what happened in the massage at all; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Asked and answered. Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: When you think back on this massage, you do not believe it was explicitly sexual; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's not correct.
MS. MENNINGER: I'd like to draw the witness's attention to 3514-12, page 4.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: I'm sorry, page 3.
JUDGE NATHAN: Where are we looking?
MS. MENNINGER: The bottom third of the page, I think. If we could call that out and expand it for everyone's benefit.
MS. MENNINGER: You recall speaking with the government and the agents on May 9th of 2020, right, Ms. Farmer?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you described for them this massage that you're talking about now, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And what you told the agents and the government in May of 2020 is that the body massage was awkward and uncomfortable, but not explicitly sexual; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't believe those are my words; I think that's what's noted here. It says no touching of nipples, genitals, etc., and I did clarify that, but that did not happen.
MS. MENNINGER: "Not explicitly sexual" is what you said; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: Is it your belief that the prosecutor wrote that down wrong in May of --
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You talked about during this massage you had a sense that Epstein would be able to see you; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: That you have no memory of him seeing you, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: He was not in the room for this massage, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: I want to talk to you about what you said happened in the bed the next morning or something. Is that the right time frame, the next morning?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: You said that Epstein entered your room; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Ghislaine Maxwell did not enter your room?
ANNIE FARMER: She did not.
MS. MENNINGER: She was not in there the whole time this happened, right?
ANNIE FARMER: She was not in there.
MS. MENNINGER: After it happened, you got up and went to the bathroom and stayed in the bathroom awhile, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Before you went to the bathroom, Epstein laid on the bed with you right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You were not sure whether he was over the covers or under the covers, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: He kind of had his arms around you, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah.
MS. MENNINGER: And you do not recall this being a sexual touch either; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: No, I would not characterize it that way.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay.
ANNIE FARMER: Again, he did not touch specifically my sexual body parts in that -- in that experience.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. On May 9th of 2020, you told the prosecutors and the government regarding this incident in the bed that you do not remember this being a sexual touch; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Am I just to be looking at -- oh, sorry.
MS. MENNINGER: Did you tell the government that on May 9th of 2020?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't recall saying that.
MS. MENNINGER: You do recall telling them that he did not grab your breasts?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And didn't touch your breasts?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Correct? Did not grab or touch your genitals; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You testified on direct that he pressed his body into you; is that right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: You did not feel an erect penis in your back?
ANNIE FARMER: I did not -- I do not -- I couldn't say whether he had an erect penis; correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You do not recall him pressing an erect penis into your back; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, I recall him pressing his body. I do not recall an erect penis.
MS. MENNINGER: And you told the government in May of 2020 that you do not recall a penis being pushed into your back; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: An erect penis, I don't recall those words.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. If I could have the witness look at 3514-012 at page 4. And if we could highlight the first, sort of, half of the page.
MS. MENNINGER: If I could have you take a look at this, Ms. Farmer.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, objection. This is not inconsistent.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You told the government that you did not feel an erect penis in your back; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Asked and answered. Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: After you returned from New Mexico, you told your mother you were "not raped"; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: When I returned from New Mexico?
MS. MENNINGER: Yes.
ANNIE FARMER: When I returned from the trip to Thailand. We didn't talk about it when I returned from New Mexico.
MS. MENNINGER: When you got back from Thailand, you said you were not raped?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: You were not sexually abused?
ANNIE FARMER: I said I was not raped.
MS. MENNINGER: And you meant you were not sexually abused; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: I think those are two different things.
MS. MENNINGER: You spoke to the government on May 9th of 2020, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And I want to jump ahead about a month from that. In late June of 2020, the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund opened, right?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't remember when it opened, but yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. I'd like to have the witness look at AF-12.
JUDGE NATHAN: The government has it?
MS. MENNINGER: I will get them a copy, your Honor. I believe they do, but I'll give them a copy. If I could have the witness take a look at the first paragraph of text and just tell me if that refreshes your memory about when the Epstein Victims Compensation Program opened. A. It says June 25th.
MS. MENNINGER: June 25th of 2020?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: So about a month after you spoke with the government, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you, yourself --
MS. MENNINGER: We can take that down now, Ms. Lundberg.
MS. MENNINGER: You, yourself submitted a claim to the Epstein Victims Compensation Program?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, my attorneys submitted a claim for me.
MS. MENNINGER: And you submitted your claim on the very next day, June 26th of 2020; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Your submission was substantial, 3,000 pages or so; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I haven't seen the full submission.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: If I could have the witness take a look at AF-13. And I will give a copy to the government. I would like to draw the witness's attention to page 12 to 13 of this document.
MS. MENNINGER: Do you recognize it, I guess, as an initial matter?
ANNIE FARMER: Oh, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And what do you recognize it to be?
ANNIE FARMER: This is a signature page, but just, I think, the application for the program.
MS. MENNINGER: Your application to the program?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: All right. And on page 12, do you recognize this as the document that you initialed?
ANNIE FARMER: I do.
MS. MENNINGER: And then if we can look at page 13, there is a signature from you, is that --
ANNIE FARMER: That's my signature, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. And that the date of this submission was June 26th of 2020; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I would like to move for the admission of pages 12 and 13 of this document.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, no objection. I do want to have to review it to see if any redactions are necessary.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. I'll admit -- so let's see, this is AF-12 -- I'm sorry, AF-13, pages 12 and 13 will be temporarily submitted -- admitted under seal with an opportunity to consider whether any redactions are necessary to protect the privacy interests of a third party. Is that the -- Ms. Pomerantz?
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, there's no one's name.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: I'd like to read from it because it's now in evidence and there's no --
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Give the government a minute to review. Thank you.
MS. POMERANTZ: I think it's fine, your Honor. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Then not sealed, admitted, AF-12, pages 12 and 13. And you may publish if you like.
(Defendant's Exhibit AF-12 received in evidence)
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: If I could start with page 12. Do you remember this document, that you signed it --
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: -- Ms. Farmer? If I could draw your attention to the first italicized paragraph, which is the second paragraph. I would like, if you could, to read that paragraph to the jury.
ANNIE FARMER: I hereby certify that the information provided in this claim form and any documents provided in support of this claim are true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, and declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. I understand that false statements or claims made in connection with this claim may result in fines, imprisonment, and/or any other remedy available by law; and that claims that appear to be potentially fraudulent or to contain information known to me to be false when made will be forwarded to federal, state, and local law enforcement authorities for possible investigation and prosecution.
MS. MENNINGER: So you understood that you were signing this claim form under penalties of perjury, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And if it was later determined that your claim was potentially fraudulent, you could be referred for legal action, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That -- yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And if you testified as something differently today, then your claim may be found potentially fraudulent; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You can take this down for the moment. Thank you.
MS. MENNINGER: In the claim form, you were asked where any sexual abuse occurred in support of your claim. Do you remember that question?
ANNIE FARMER: No. Sorry. There's a lot of questions.
MS. MENNINGER: That's all right.
MS. MENNINGER: If we could have the witness take a look at -- it's that same document on page 3., and it's question 3.
ANNIE FARMER: I see.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. So you were asked in question 3 where -- to the best of your ability, to locate the places where sexual abuse occurred, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you understood to be answering this sexual abuse by Jeffrey Epstein, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And Ghislaine Maxwell, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Mm-hmm.
MS. MENNINGER: And you told the -- we can take it down -- the victims' compensation program that you were sexually abused in a movie theater in New York, right?
ANNIE FARMER: The box for "New York" was checked.
MS. MENNINGER: I'm sorry, can we bring it back up.
MS. MENNINGER: There is a box under question 3?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, that's what I was saying, yes, it says New York City and New Mexico.
MS. MENNINGER: And then there's a box below that.
ANNIE FARMER: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see that.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: So now you can take it down.
MS. MENNINGER: Unless you need to look at it further?
ANNIE FARMER: No, no, no. I just wanted to read the whole entire thing.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. So we can take it down. So what you told the victims compensation fund is that you were sexually abused in a movie theater in New York, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And you were sexually abused in a movie theater in New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: And both of those were related to the hand-holding incidents that happened in those two locations, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yeah, that was explained in the application.
MS. MENNINGER: Hand-holding was sexual abuse?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Overruled. Go ahead.
ANNIE FARMER: My experience was detailed in the application, which included, yes, him holding and caressing my hands. I did not say anything else happened to me in the movie theater.
MS. MENNINGER: You told the victims compensation fund that you were sexually abused in a movie theater in New York; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I think I answered that. Those were the boxes that are checked, yes. And then that was a small field. And then later on you describe what happened to you, and that's what I did.
MS. MENNINGER: It wasn't just a box that was checked; you wrote in "movie theater in New York," right?
ANNIE FARMER: That was written in on the form.
MS. MENNINGER: And a movie theater in New Mexico, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And so those were both hand-holding incidents, right?
ANNIE FARMER: They were the incidents that I've already described where my leg and hand was caressed, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Right. You're not saying anyone touched your private parts?
ANNIE FARMER: No, I was very consistent with that.
MS. MENNINGER: And it's important to you that you be consistent, right?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: Of course.
MS. MENNINGER: So you did, as you said, submit a longer detailed version of your claim to the fund, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: It wasn't just checking boxes?
ANNIE FARMER: Right, right, right. There was a narrative portion.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. And when you were describing the foot massage in the narrative program -- portion, excuse me, you told the victims compensation fund that Mr. Epstein kept staring at you and telling you how good the massage felt, right?
ANNIE FARMER: I -- I think that -- I mean -- I -- yes, I guess that is what I said. I don't remember using those words. I know I communicated to my attorneys and they typed it for me.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. If you would take a look at AF-13, page 22, second full paragraph. And the second sentence from the bottom, does that refresh your recollection about what you told the victims compensation fund about the foot massage?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And what you told them is that Mr. Epstein kept staring at you and telling you how good the massage felt, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you also told them that Mr. Epstein was groaning a lot during the foot massage, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And that's not what you had told the government in May of 2020, right?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't know if they asked me questions about that in May of 2020.
MS. MENNINGER: You told them you don't remember it being sexualized, right?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You also described for the victims compensation fund the massage that you received in New Mexico; correct? Right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you've told the jury that the -- your chest and upper breast were massaged during the massage; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: What you told the victims compensation fund is that your breasts were groped; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes. I don't see that as significantly different, but --
MS. MENNINGER: Rubbed, groped, massaged.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Not your nipple area, any of that?
ANNIE FARMER: No, she did not touch my nipples.
MS. MENNINGER: But you told them your breasts were groped, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you told us in your direct testimony that it was your chest and upper breast that were touched, right?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow it. Go ahead.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you believed that that -- you told the victims compensation fund that that was also sexual abuse; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: When you testified on direct about the incident in the bed, you said that Mr. Epstein had his arms around you, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you don't remember any penis being pressed against you, right?
ANNIE FARMER: No --
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. A. You said erect penis.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Grounds, Ms. Menninger.
MS. MENNINGER: For me, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm sorry, Ms. Pomerantz. Grounds, Ms. Pomerantz?
MS. POMERANTZ: Asked and answered, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I am trying to draw her attention to direct testimony, that's all, as a foundation of further questioning.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: Did you testify on direct that Mr. Epstein pressed his body against you?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: And what you told the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund is that he rubbed his genitals against you in the bed; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Those are not consistent.
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You testified on direct that on your last day in New Mexico, that Ghislaine seemed disinterested in your school project, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: That's not something you told the government in 2006 when you met with them, right?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't recall whether we talked about that.
MS. MENNINGER: You never had any communication with Ghislaine after New Mexico, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: She never called you?
ANNIE FARMER: No, she did not.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't make any travel plans for you, right?
ANNIE FARMER: She did not.
MS. MENNINGER: She didn't ask you to travel somewhere; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you went to Thailand after this at some point, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, that summer.
MS. MENNINGER: And you accepted the money for the Thailand trip from Mr. Epstein, right?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: I think you talked a little bit on direct about the fact that you've made a number of public statements, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You've been on documentaries and podcasts, right?
ANNIE FARMER: I have.
MS. MENNINGER: Under your real name?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you have touted yourself in those appearances as a survivor of sexual abuse; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: One-word grounds.
MS. POMERANTZ: Form.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
MS. MENNINGER: Correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Have I described myself as a survivor of this --
MS. MENNINGER: Survivor of sexual abuse.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you've gone to court in relationship to Mr. Epstein's legal proceedings, right?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: And you spoke publicly there?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And afterwards you met with a number of other Epstein accusers; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You were part of a press conference with your attorneys; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes. I mean, I was standing there. I wasn't really doing anything, but I was at the -- at the location.
MS. MENNINGER: And you have had attorneys representing you in connection with this for quite some time; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You originally hired attorneys in 2016?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't believe I hired any attorneys at that time. I was -- I spoke with an attorney at that time.
MS. MENNINGER: And certainly you had hired attorneys before you first met with the government in September of 2019; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: At your first meeting in September of 2019, your attorneys were there?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes, that's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Someone from the Boies Schiller firm, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And so you had a civil attorney sometime before September of 2019?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: So the same civil attorneys that filed a lawsuit on your behalf?
ANNIE FARMER: They are.
MS. MENNINGER: They are the same attorneys who filed the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund documents on your behalf; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: Your attorney, Ms. McCawley, is here in the courtroom wearing white; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: She has attended numerous meetings with the government with you, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: She has attended prior trial testimony in this case at this courthouse; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: She has sat in the overflow room for that portion; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: She did.
MS. MENNINGER: And she's listened to the testimony of other witnesses; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You talked on direct about your lawyers representing you pro bono; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: You do not know your lawyers' arrangements with other of their clients; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: Do you know how much money your lawyers have made in connection with Epstein claims?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Grounds.
MS. POMERANTZ: Foundation. Beyond the scope of her knowledge, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll sustain on foundation.
MS. MENNINGER: Have you read anywhere in the press how much money your lawyers have made in connection with representing Epstein accusers?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: You know that Virginia Roberts was also represented by your attorneys; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
MS. MENNINGER: I can lay a foundation.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may inquire.
MS. POMERANTZ: Relevance and hearsay.
MS. MENNINGER: You were preparing to testify in a civil case?
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a minute.
MS. MENNINGER: Oh, I'm sorry.
JUDGE NATHAN: If there's an objection, you have to give me a minute to rule.
MS. MENNINGER: I thought you had, your Honor. I apologize.
JUDGE NATHAN: I had on the prior ones. Overruled. You may inquire.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: You were preparing to testify in a civil case in or around 2016 or 2017; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And the lawyers you were interacting with in that case, the civil case, were the same lawyers from Boies Schiller; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: In part.
MS. MENNINGER: And also Mr. Edwards; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you know that in connection with that civil case, your lawyers, Ms. McCawley and Mr. Edwards, represent Virginia Roberts; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Foundation objection?
MS. POMERANTZ: Relevance.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Pomerantz, you inquired as to pro bono representation; correct? Is that correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. I'll overrule.
ANNIE FARMER: Can you repeat the question?
MS. MENNINGER: You know that Ms. McCawley and Mr. Edwards represent Virginia Roberts?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: In connection with civil litigation?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And you were prepared to testify in that civil litigation; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I was.
MS. MENNINGER: And you know that Mr. Edwards is representing other people in this criminal case; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: I do know that.
MS. MENNINGER: And you know that your attorney represents other individuals who have accused Epstein; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You've been in touch with a number of other Epstein accusers in many different forms and fashion; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Vague. Confusing.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. You can specify please.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. Are you a part of a WhatsApp group of Epstein accusers?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You communicated with other Epstein accusers on the WhatsApp for those accusers?
ANNIE FARMER: Correct.
MS. MENNINGER: You've emailed with other accusers; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I have.
MS. MENNINGER: You directly emailed with Virginia Roberts; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I have.
MS. MENNINGER: You have been with other Epstein accusers in connection with your media appearances, right?
ANNIE FARMER: You mean when they were at the courtroom and filming everyone?
MS. MENNINGER: Right.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: You know that your attorneys from Boies Schiller were a part of setting up the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. One-word grounds.
MS. POMERANTZ: Hearsay and privilege.
JUDGE NATHAN: You can inquire as to foundation.
MS. MENNINGER: I'm not trying to ask you about things that you've learned in connection with your --
JUDGE NATHAN: Just ask.
MS. MENNINGER: -- communications --
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll deal with that, but just ask the question. I'll either sustain or overrule.
MS. MENNINGER: You are aware it's a matter of public record that your attorneys --
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Foundation. Ask the foundation question first and then we'll see.
MS. MENNINGER: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: It's in the newspapers that your attorneys helped set up the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Is the question is she aware of that? Is that the question?
MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: And so you are aware that it is a matter of public knowledge that your attorneys helped set up the Epstein Victims Compensation Program?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, objection to this entire line of questioning.
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes, I gather.
MS. POMERANTZ: This calls for hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: I asked for foundation. We got the foundation. And now on this question, one question at a time. I sustain.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: You participated in that fund; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: You accepted an offer from that fund?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. MENNINGER: You were paid one and a half million dollars?
ANNIE FARMER: I was.
MS. MENNINGER: And was based on the same things that you've testified in this courtroom today; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: The sexual abuse in a movie theater, right, is one of those things?
ANNIE FARMER: As one of the things, yes.
MS. MENNINGER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, at this time I would offer -- I would ask to show, excuse me, the witness AF-14. And I'll provide a copy to the government.
MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. MENNINGER: If I could show the witness page 2 of that document as well, and page 3, and the last page.
MS. MENNINGER: That's your signature, Ms. Farmer; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: That was in October of 2020?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: This form is the release form that you signed in connection with accepting the offer from the victims compensation program, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: And it details the one and a half million dollars that you received, right?
ANNIE FARMER: That's right.
MS. MENNINGER: I would move for the admission of AF-14, your Honor.
MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: AF-14 is admitted.
(Defendant's Exhibit AF-14 received in evidence)
JUDGE NATHAN: No redaction requests here?
MS. POMERANTZ: No, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: 14 is admitted.
MS. MENNINGER: We can take it down now, Ms. Lundberg.
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: In connection with some of your public appearances, you have described the fact that you are a psychologist; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: That's correct.
MS. MENNINGER: And you have described the fact that you work with victims of sexual trauma; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: Amongst other types of, yeah, clients, I do.
MS. MENNINGER: And you know that it gives you more credibility with future clients --
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
MS. MENNINGER: -- if you mention your profession in connection with your media appearances, right?
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. There's an objection to that question?
MS. POMERANTZ: That's fine, your Honor. Withdrawn.
JUDGE NATHAN: Go ahead.
ANNIE FARMER: The question is whether it gives me more credibility to be a victim?
MS. MENNINGER: It gives you more credibility with future clients if you mention your experience during your media appearances; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: My personal experience or my professional experience?
MS. MENNINGER: Your personal experiences.
ANNIE FARMER: I guess I would say that that is probably not -- people have different opinions about that, about whether that would give you credibility or not.
MS. MENNINGER: You certainly have not shied away from telling in your public appearances the fact that you are, yourself, trained as a psychologist, right?
ANNIE FARMER: I have shared that.
MS. MENNINGER: We've talked previously about the fact that you spoke with the FBI in 2006, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. MENNINGER: That was with Agent Nesbitt Kuyrkendall, right?
ANNIE FARMER: Right.
MS. MENNINGER: You did not tell Agent Kuyrkendall in 2006 that you wanted Mr. Epstein prosecuted; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained. I'll hear from you, if you'd like.
MS. MENNINGER: Yes. Please. I'm not clear.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sure.
(At sidebar)
JUDGE NATHAN: State your ground.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I don't understand the relevance of this question. It seems just like a wholly improper question, what she was asking, whether she asked the FBI to prosecute Jeffrey Epstein at this time. I just don't even understand the question.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, Agent Kuyrkendall signed a declaration in 2017 and she said that she spoke to a number of victims between '06 and '08, and none of them expressed an opinion that they wanted Epstein prosecuted. Now, she clearly, in 2019, did want Epstein prosecuted.
JUDGE NATHAN: She's the witness.
MS. MENNINGER: What's that?
JUDGE NATHAN: She's the witness subpoenaed to testify. Her motivation --
MS. MENNINGER: I'm asking what she said to --
JUDGE NATHAN: Right, but --
MS. MENNINGER: Okay. You want me to ask the motivation? I see.
JUDGE NATHAN: Well, I don't understand -- well, I'll sustain the objection to the question asked --
MS. MENNINGER: Okay.
JUDGE NATHAN: -- about what she told an agent --
MS. MENNINGER: Okay.
JUDGE NATHAN: -- in 2006. What's the next question?
MS. MENNINGER: It would just be, You did not want Epstein prosecuted in 2006?
JUDGE NATHAN: You want to ask her if she wanted Epstein prosecuted in 2006?
MS. MENNINGER: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: What is the relevance of that?
MS. MENNINGER: Because she's changed her mind about wanting people prosecuted in connection with this case. She has a different bias today than she did in 2006; that she brought up her lawsuit in connection with applying to the fund and filing a civil lawsuit. When she didn't have those motivations in 2006, she didn't want to prosecute. It's a clear distinction in two different periods of time, 15 years apart. It goes to our money theme, your Honor, that we opened on.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I just don't see the relevance or basis for this line of questioning.
JUDGE NATHAN: You're going to ask her if she wanted Epstein prosecuted in 2006. And if she says yes, then what?
MS. MENNINGER: Agent Kuyrkendall is under subpoena, your Honor, and testified that none of the victims she talked to in '06 to '08 wanted them prosecuted.
JUDGE NATHAN: You're not doing that. I've ruled on that.
MS. MENNINGER: What she told the agent about prosecution.
MS. MOE: Your Honor, I think we're confusing two issues: Whether or not she told the FBI she wanted him prosecuted and asked them to do that and whether she, in fact, wanted that to happen. I think what she's proposing is impeaching her in the absence of a statement to the FBI.
JUDGE NATHAN: I think that's right. You can ask her, I suppose, if she wanted him prosecuted in 2006. I'm not going to allow --
MS. MENNINGER: I know with this witness I'm not. If we get into --
JUDGE NATHAN: We'll get into that when we get into that.
MS. MENNINGER: That's right.
JUDGE NATHAN: But not what you told.
MS. MENNINGER: I understand.
JUDGE NATHAN: There have been a lot of objections.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court)
BY MS. MENNINGER:
MS. MENNINGER: Ms. Farmer, in 2006, you did not want Jeffrey Epstein prosecuted; correct?
ANNIE FARMER: I don't recall that being the case.
MS. MENNINGER: You didn't want him prosecuted because no crime had been committed; correct?
MS. POMERANTZ: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. MENNINGER: If I may have one moment to confer with my client, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred with defendant)
MS. MENNINGER: No further questions at this time, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Pomerantz?
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I just have one moment please?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Good afternoon, Annie.
ANNIE FARMER: Good afternoon.
MS. POMERANTZ: How, if at all, have you struggled to process your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein?
ANNIE FARMER: I think it's been -- it was a very upsetting and confusing situation. And I think for a long time I just really didn't want to think about it. And then, you know, of course, it has come up again and again, and so with, you know -- I have thought a lot more about it and it -- it's just -- it causes discomfort, and yeah. I don't know what to say.
MS. POMERANTZ: You were asked questions on cross-examination about your journal. Do you remember that?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you give the government every entry from your journal that has anything to do with this case?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: What's the subject matter of the rest of your -- of that journal from when you were 16 years old?
ANNIE FARMER: Very high school kind of things. There's a journal entry about the day that --
MS. POMERANTZ: I should say, without sharing any details, just generally, what was the subject matter of the rest of your teenage journal?
ANNIE FARMER: A favorite musician died, and I wrote that I was very sad about it. Going -- like social things, friend things, things like that.
MS. POMERANTZ: Did you write about private matters?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you recall being asked about your first interview with the FBI in 2006?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you have a lawyer?
ANNIE FARMER: I did not.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you tell the FBI about Maxwell massaging your breasts?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you tell the FBI about Epstein getting into bed with you?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Leading, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you recall Ms. Menninger asking you about a particular statement you made in connection with the 2006 interview conducted by the FBI?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: I believe she showed you a particular document to refresh your recollection.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can we pull up 3514-001.
MS. POMERANTZ: And I want to direct your attention to the second full paragraph on page 2.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: And directing your attention to the last sentence. She directed you to the first half of the sentence, but I would like to direct you to the full sentence.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: After you told the FBI that Maria was supposed to go on the trip to New Mexico, what's the very next thing you said to the FBI?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay. Foundation, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. This was the sentence Ms. Pomerantz asked you to read in context. And I believe your words were, That's what redirect is for.
MS. MENNINGER: And for objections on redirect, including foundation.
JUDGE NATHAN: Understood. Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: That Epstein or Maxwell was the one that was responsible for canceling Maria's trip at the last minute.
MS. POMERANTZ: I want to direct your attention to a -- the last paragraph on that same page.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can we pull that up, Ms. Drescher.
MS. POMERANTZ: And do you recall when you were asked questions on cross-examination, Ms. Menninger read the sentences about horseback riding in this paragraph to you?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
(Continued on next page)
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you read the rest of the paragraph to yourself.
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Does that refresh your recollection that you told the FBI in 2006 that Maxwell --
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Leading, your Honor. And there was no denial of a recollection to refresh.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: Prior consistent statements.
JUDGE NATHAN: You can ask the question. Leading. Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: What do you recall telling the FBI --
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, did you tell the FBI about a foot massage in 2006?
ANNIE FARMER: I did.
MS. POMERANTZ: What did you tell the FBI about a foot massage?
ANNIE FARMER: That Maxwell showed me how to rub Epstein's feet and that, eventually --
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I believe the witness is reading from a document.
JUDGE NATHAN: We can take it down. A. -- that I began doing that on my own after she had shown me how to do it.
MS. POMERANTZ: If we can bring up 3514-001 on page 3. Blow up the top paragraph.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I'm not sure what the witness is being shown the document for.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow it. I will see, but I presume prior consistent statements following impeachment of prior inconsistent statements.
MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. But either the witness recalls it from memory or needs to be refreshed, and that's the part that's not a matter of record in this procedure.
JUDGE NATHAN: Fair enough. You'll ask the specific question and then we can take it from there. You can take it down.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, do you recall what you told the FBI in 2006 about the massage that Maxwell had given you?
ANNIE FARMER: I recall the parts that I've described.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you explain?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes. Again, that she had me lay on the table, that she was eager for me to experience the massage and asked me to, you know, lay on the table, to undress, to lay under the sheets, and then she began rubbing my body. Eventually, she pulled back the sheet --
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Narrative, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. A. -- and rubbed my breasts, as I described.
MS. POMERANTZ: And you talked about your experience with Epstein and Maxwell in New Mexico. Did you include the details of your experience with Epstein and Maxwell in your submission to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you recall being asked questions on cross examination about your time in New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you recall being asked questions about the movie that you saw in New Mexico?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: What was that movie again?
ANNIE FARMER: Primal Fear.
MS. POMERANTZ: Why does that movie stand out in your memory?
ANNIE FARMER: In the movie, there's a priest that's sexually abusing -- it's a theme around sexual abuse. So there is sexual misconduct on the screen with the actors.
MS. POMERANTZ: You were asked questions on cross examination about public interviews you gave. Do you remember that?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: About how many interviews have you given publicly?
ANNIE FARMER: I think maybe four or five.
MS. POMERANTZ: And are your public interviews consistent or inconsistent with what you have testified about here today?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: When you spoke publicly in interviews, did you tell the truth?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Was it important to tell the truth when you spoke publicly?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, have you coordinated your testimony with any other witnesses at this trial?
ANNIE FARMER: I have not.
MS. POMERANTZ: Has anyone ever told you what to say?
MS. POMERANTZ: Have you conformed your testimony to anyone else?
MS. POMERANTZ: What are you here to do today?
ANNIE FARMER: I'm here to be a part of hoping that Ghislaine Maxwell's held accountable for the harm that she's caused.
MS. POMERANTZ: You were asked questions about your claim to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund. Do you recall that?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: And to be clear, approximately when and what year did you submit your application to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund?
ANNIE FARMER: In 2020.
MS. POMERANTZ: And just to take a step back, can you remind the jury, when was the first time that you spoke with the FBI?
ANNIE FARMER: 2006.
MS. POMERANTZ: And just to remind the jury, when you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you have a lawyer?
ANNIE FARMER: I did not.
MS. POMERANTZ: You were asked questions about the award that you received from the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you tell the jury what the money means to you?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Relevance, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: It's a very significant chunk of money. It's a security for myself and my family, and it's already been helpful in providing that.
MS. POMERANTZ: To be clear, do you have a financial stake in the outcome of this trial?
ANNIE FARMER: I do not.
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Asked and answered, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment, please?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, do you recall being asked questions on cross examination about your memory?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you remember Maxwell touching your breasts?
ANNIE FARMER: Yes.
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you need a journal entry or a piece of paper to remember Maxwell touching your breasts?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm sorry. There is an objection.
MS. POMERANTZ: Sorry, your Honor.
MS. MENNINGER: Leading to the last question.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow the question and then pause after the next one.
MS. POMERANTZ: Apologies, your Honor. I'm sorry. I just want to know which question I should back up to.
JUDGE NATHAN: The question was, do you need a journal entry or a piece of paper.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, do you need a journal entry or a piece of paper to remember Maxwell touching your breasts during a massage?
ANNIE FARMER: No, I do not.
MS. POMERANTZ: Why does that stand out?
ANNIE FARMER: Because it was a very distressing event, and those are the things that we remember.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you explain to the jury --
MS. POMERANTZ: Withdrawn.
MS. POMERANTZ: Do you recall being asked about Jeffrey Epstein's penis several times on cross examination?
ANNIE FARMER: I do.
MS. POMERANTZ: In your own words, can you explain what Epstein did when he got into bed with you?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Asked and answered. And I was not allowed to ask the question.
JUDGE NATHAN: I believe the objection I sustained with you was the asked and answered question, wasn't it?
MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Give me a moment. Overruled.
BY MS. POMERANTZ:
MS. POMERANTZ: Annie, I believe the question I had asked was: In your own words, can you explain what Epstein did when he got into bed with you?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Calls for a narrative, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll give her some room to lead, if you'd like. I don't know what the answer will be, so how can you -- she can either lead or she can ask a non-leading question. So if it's --
MS. MENNINGER: It's a broad question. That's my complaint.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: When he crawled into bed with me, he put his arms around me and he pressed his body into mine and, you know, sort of -- he had rubbing up against me with his arms around my front.
MS. POMERANTZ: You testified about your experiences with Epstein and Maxwell, about them being sexualized experiences. Can you explain in your own words what you mean by that?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: I think this was all a pattern of them working on confusing my boundaries, making me question myself about what was right and what was not right and with the ultimate goal of sexually abusing me.
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 702, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. Door opened. Overruled.
MS. POMERANTZ: Can you explain to the jury in your own words how you experienced Maxwell touching your breasts during the massage in New Mexico?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Misstates the witness's testimony.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Overruled.
ANNIE FARMER: I was very uncomfortable and fearful and wanted to get off of the table, that massage table, and wanted it to be over with.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment, please.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Menninger.
MS. MENNINGER: No further questions, your Honor. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. Ms. Farmer, you may step down. You are excused.
(Witness excused) Government may call its next witness.
MS. POMERANTZ: The government calls David Mulligan.
JUDGE NATHAN: David Mulligan may come forward.
MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, may we come forward just one moment?
JUDGE NATHAN: Have Mr. Mulligan wait one moment until we come back.
(Continued on next page)
(At the sidebar)
JUDGE NATHAN: Before I start, I want to make a record because I said, door open. The defense expressly attempted to suggest impeachment of the witness, that she had indicated the handholding on the victim's compensation form as sexual abuse. So I allowed that question. In light of that door opening, I don't think she'd tread it into expert testimony in any way, but it was directly responsive to a series of questions that the defense put at issue by her description of the earlier conduct as handholding. So that's the record I'm making.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, may I make a very brief --
JUDGE NATHAN: You're welcome to make a record. I wanted to explain why I said, door opened.
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. I had asked the witness a number of questions about her statements to law enforcement where she said she does not remember it being sexualized and I was not allowed to ask those questions about those not being sexualized touches.
JUDGE NATHAN: The record is what it is. That's not the Court's memory.
MS. MENNINGER: It's my memory, and I understand --
JUDGE NATHAN: -- asked repeatedly, that's true, and I didn't allow it to be asked if it was not a prior inconsistent statement, but I didn't preclude that area from being explored.
MS. MENNINGER: For that reason, having her explain what sexualized means when I wasn't allowed to elicit to the agents that it wasn't sexualized is what gives me concern.
JUDGE NATHAN: The record stands and you inquired. I didn't prohibit you from asking her, I didn't let her explain what sexualized means either. I've made my record and the record stands as it is. You can't go back in time.
MS. MENNINGER: That's right.
JUDGE NATHAN: What is the issue? Should I send the jury for a break or?
MS. STERNHEIM: If this would probably be a good time for a break before they call him, but I can make it very quickly.
JUDGE NATHAN: Go ahead.
MS. STERNHEIM: It's my understanding that Dave Mulligan is being called as a witness for prior inconsistent statements.
JUDGE NATHAN: Right.
MS. STERNHEIM: The 3500 material that has been provided far exceeds the testimony of this witness, and I just want to make sure that it is not going to exceed as far as prior consistent what she's testified to.
MS. POMERANTZ: I'm happy to consult with Ms. Sternheim on a break. My plan is to ask specific questions that would be consistent with what she's testified about.
JUDGE NATHAN: Let's get started. My plan was to break at 3:30.
MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: If I get an objection, then I'll send them for a break.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court)
JUDGE NATHAN: I understand the members of the jury need a restroom break, so we'll break for about 10 minutes.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: I encourage counsel to confer. I'll come back in 10. You let me know if there is dispute about the scope of the --
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes, Judge. May I sit here rather than move or would you prefer I move to that --
JUDGE NATHAN: I don't mind. That's fine, Ms. Sternheim.
MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: 10 minutes. Thank you.
(Recess)
JUDGE NATHAN: Any matters to take up?
MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government, your Honor.
MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor.
MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, should we get the witness?
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes, he can come in. That's fine. He's been called. Mr. Mulligan, you're welcome to come in, take your mask off. Once the jury comes in, I'll swear you in.
ANNIE FARMER: Okay.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Government has called David Mulligan. DAVID JAMES MULLIGAN, called as a witness by the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. Please be seated. Once seated, please state and spell your name for the record.
ANNIE FARMER: My name is David James Mulligan, D-a-v-i-d J-a-m-e-s M-u-l-l-i-g-a-n.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. You may inquire, Ms. Pomerantz.
MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor.