Jane — Direct/Cross
1,000 linesDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. MOE:
MS. MOE: Leading up to this trial, did you ask to testify under a pseudonym to protect your privacy?
MS. MOE: I'd ask you to please take a look in the binder in front of you on the witness stand. If you could please turn to what's marked for identification as Government Exhibit 12. Just let me know when you are there please.
JUDGE NATHAN: I just want to make sure that defense has what they need.
MS. MENNINGER: I do. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Thank you. Go ahead.
MS. MOE: At this time, your Honor, Government Exhibit 12 is in evidence under seal. I'd ask the jurors be permitted to remove their juror binders and turn to Tab 12.
JUDGE NATHAN: Without objection, Ms. Menninger?
MS. MENNINGER: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Jurors, you may open the binder and look at what's been admitted as GX-12, please.
BY MS. MOE:
MS. MOE: Directing your attention to the top left corner of Government Exhibit 12, where it says "child's name." Do you see that?
MS. MOE: Thank you. You can close the binder. Now, Jane, I want to ask you, did there come a time in your life when you met someone named Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. MOE: Was there ever anyone else in the room with you when you had sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein when you were 14 years old?
MS. MOE: Who was most frequently in the room when you had sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein when you were 14 years old?
MS. MOE: I'd like to ask you to take a moment to look around the courtroom, and you can stand up if you need to if you can't see. Do you see Ghislaine Maxwell in the courtroom today?
MS. MOE: Can you please point to where she's sitting and indicate an article of clothing that she's wearing.
JUDGE NATHAN: It may so reflect.
MS. MOE: Now, I want to ask you more about that in a few moments, but first I want to take a step back. Directing your attention to 1993, where were you living that year?
MS. MOE: I'd ask you to take a look at the binder in front of you. If you could please turn to what's been marked for identification only as Government Exhibit 106. Do you recognize that?
MS. MENNINGER: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government Exhibit 106 is admitted under seal, consistent with my ruling, to protect the anonymity of this testifying witness.
(Government's Exhibit 106 received in evidence)
JUDGE NATHAN: Jurors, you may pick up the binder and please turn to GX-106.
BY MS. MOE:
MS. MOE: Who was living with you in your household in 1993 when you were approximately 13 years old?
JANE: It was not great. My father's employer had canceled his health insurance without him knowing, and ended up in the hospital and died very suddenly. And basically, my family went into complete bankruptcy and lost everything, and we had to move out of our home.
MS. MOE: You testified that before he passed away, your father was a composer. Were you involved in the arts growing up?
JANE: It's a camp for children with all kinds of artistic abilities: Music, musical theater, theater, orchestra. Basically, what we used to joke about being band camp.
MS. MOE: Given your family's financial circumstances at the time, how were you and your brothers able to attend summer camp?
JANE: That first summer, my oldest sister and her husband and her husband's family all pitched in to send us to camp.
MS. MOE: And when you arrived at camp that summer, how long had it been since your father passed away?
MS. MOE: Did there come a time that summer at Interlochen Arts Camp when you met a man and a woman?
JANE: I was in the main campus area where all the students hung out during a break and where all the little cafes were and sort of the gift shop. And I was on a park bench or a picnic bench with my friends from camp. And we were eating ice cream.
JANE: Well, we were sitting around and socializing. And we see this tall thin woman approach us. Well, she was walking with a cute little Yorkie. And the Yorkie came by us and we asked if we could pet the dog.
JANE: We started chitchatting, petted the dog. And the rest of my classmates had to go to class. And probably about a minute later, another man came and joined her.
JANE: We continued chitchat, sort of talked to us. And the rest of my friends, my classmates, left, and I was there by myself. And I sat on the bench still eating my ice cream, and the man sat across from me.
JANE: Yes, I did. He seemed very interested to know what I thought about the camp, what my favorite classes were, what my least favorite classes, teachers, whatnot, what the experience was like. And proceeded to say that they were big benefactors of this camp; and that they went there every summer; and that they gave different kids scholarships. And so they wanted to really know what a student attending the camp, what their perspective was on it.
JANE: Well, they asked me where I was from. And I said I lived in Palm Beach, Florida. And the man said, What a coincidence, we live there too. What are your parents' names? And I said, Well, my father just passed away. But my mother's name is. And he said, I think we know your mom. It's kind of a smaller town. We definitely know her. And I said, You know, my parents were sort of out on the scene, and my father was a musician, and so that would make sense. And he had a newspaper under his arm. And then he put the newspaper on the picnic table and said, Well, what's your mom's name? Gave my mom's name. And he said, Well, what's her phone number? And I just kind of went, Okay. He's asking me for a number, so I gave it to him. And so I gave my mom's, which, you know, at the time was just a landline.
JANE: It just sort of ended like, It was, you know, so nice to meet you and I'm going to call your mom. That was it.
JANE: They seemed very friendly. I thought they were a married couple. They seemed inquisitive. And it made sense, I guess, if they spent time there, that they wanted to know what the -- what the classes were like and what the campus was like.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm sorry, Ms. Moe, can you come a little closer to the mic?
MS. MOE: After you returned home from summer camp in 1994, did you ever hear from those two people that you met at camp?
JANE: I just remember coming home from school one day, and my mom said, Someone you met at summer camp, someone from their office called me. And I said, Oh, well, I don't -- oh, that's right. I -- I barely remember, because it seemed so long ago. It was maybe four or five or six weeks, but, you know, being that young, it seemed like an eternity. And I said, Yeah, I met -- and they said that they know you. And my mom said, Well, we've been invited to his house for some tea some afternoon.
JANE: Well, it was enormous. It was not a pool house in the back of someone's yard. It was this giant, like, beach-looking house with a big white fence around it. And these giant gates opened up, and the car pulled in. And it was just this, you know, big beautiful house.
JANE: Well, somebody opened the door for us and let us in the house and escorted us through the house and to Jeffrey's office, which was sort of like an open space.
JANE: He was on the phone. He got off the phone, stood up, and introduced himself to me and my mother, and then sort of let us outside to the back patio, which had this great big dining table. And there was a big spread of, like, pastries and sandwiches and tea.
JANE: Well, he was very inquisitive and asked me questions about what I was doing in school, what my interests were, what I wanted to do with my life, and was asking us about our family, asking my mother. It didn't last very long, I would say maybe 30 minutes in total. But he proceeded to say, Well, I like to mentor young students who are artists. And I love music, and I love dance, and I gave all kinds of scholarships.
JANE: It ended with him saying, Well, I am -- I'm very impressed with your daughter and, you know, would love to see her sing next time.
MS. MOE: We've been talking about a time period when you were 14 and living in Palm Beach. How old were you when you moved away from Palm Beach?
MS. MOE: I want to focus now first on the first few months that you spent time with Jeffrey Epstein when you were 14. During those first few months, when you spent time with Jeffrey Epstein in Palm Beach, who was typically there with you?
MS. MOE: And when you would spend time with Jeffrey Epstein at his house in those first few months, who, if anyone, was there?
MS. MOE: What was your understanding at the time of what the relationship was between Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein?
JANE: I didn't really understand. They never really shared that information. I just assumed that they were married. And then at a certain point I thought maybe they're best friends. And then I thought, Well, maybe she works for him because he would ask her to do things, make phone calls and things for him. So I guess I was just confused.
JANE: It would be Ghislaine calling the house or Jeffrey's office calling the house, like an assistant or something.
MS. MOE: Now, you mentioned earlier that you would go to these meetings alone. Just to be clear, did your mother go with you for these meetings?
JANE: Yes. I don't remember his name, but he was a sweet Latin-American man. And I know his wife worked at the house as well.
MS. MOE: When you began spending time with Maxwell and Epstein, what was your impression at the time of how old they were?
MS. MOE: And again, just to be very clear, how old were you when you first started spending time with Maxwell and Epstein?
MS. MOE: What kind of activities would you typically do when you spent time with Maxwell and Epstein during those first few months?
JANE: We would spend time at the house and sort of chitchat and -- or eat in the kitchen or hang out by the pool, sometimes going to the movies. Casual stuff.
MS. MOE: What, if anything, do you remember about spending time at the pool during those first few months?
JANE: Well, I remember maybe the first time I went to the poolside. And I walked out there. And there was at least four women and Ghislaine all topless, and some of them were naked.
MS. MOE: In those first few months when you spent time at the house in Palm Beach, did you have conversations with Maxwell?
JANE: Well, we would chitchat, talk about school. She would ask me, you know, what I was up to, and ask me if I had any boyfriend at school.
MS. MOE: During those first few months, as you were getting to know her, how did Maxwell come across to you?
JANE: She seemed a little bit odd and quirky; but, you know, she would kind of like tease me at times and -- but she was nice.
MS. MOE: How would you describe your relationship with Maxwell those first few months when you started spending time with her?
JANE: In the first few months, I felt like I think she might have said, I'm sort of like an older sister. Because I at least thought that she was the same age difference maybe as my oldest sister, but I wasn't sure.
JANE: I just remember that he said good-bye to me and was going to lead me to the front door. And he put cash in my hand. And I was a polite kid who didn't want to look. And I said, No, it's okay. And he said, No, no, no. It's okay. This is for your mother. I know she's having a hard time, so it's not a big deal.
MS. MOE: In your conversations with Maxwell, in that first few months that you were spending time with her and with Epstein, did you ever have any conversations with her about boyfriends?
JANE: I just remember her telling me at one point when I said, No, I don't have a boyfriend, she said, Well, remember when you do, that once you fuck them, you can always fuck them again because they're grandfathered in.
JANE: Well, I giggled because I didn't understand what "grandfathered" meant, first and foremost.
JANE: They bought me some -- some pants and some shoes, like, sort of loafers. I remember some shirts, like, sort of a preppy button-up shirt, like a cashmere sweater.
JANE: It was sort of those, like, white cotton briefs; like, the very sort of, I would say, basic-looking ones that you would, sort of, wear when you're -- when you're younger.
MS. MOE: During this time in the first few months when you were spending time with Maxwell and Epstein, did they ever tell you anything about their social circle?
JANE: Yes. I mean, from the very beginning there was a lot of bragging about how they were friends with essentially everyone, and they knew everyone. And they would sort of name-drop or sometimes put people on speakerphone whose voices I didn't know and then say, Oh, well, this was so-and-so and so-and-so; and just, you know, say that they were very well-connected and affluent.
JANE: I mean, I guess it made me feel slightly intimidated, but it was overwhelming. And also I just -- I didn't know how I was supposed to feel about it.
MS. MOE: What names do you recall them mentioning to you when they would tell you about their social circle?
MS. MOE: I want to ask you now about the house in Palm Beach where you were spending time with Maxwell and Epstein. Could you please describe for the jury how that house in Palm Beach was decorated.
JANE: It was -- I mean, it was a giant house, and so it had lots of furniture, or at least in my opinion it was lots of furniture, and lots of artwork and sculptures. And there was a lot of, like, memorabilia and pictures, and pictures with famous people and presidents and things like that.
JANE: Well, not knowing much about art, I thought some of it was maybe a little bit odd. You know, there were some paintings of, like, naked women or half-naked women and, like, lots of kind of -- or animals, like creepy looking animals.
MS. MOE: You testified earlier that there came a time when you had sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein. Again, approximately when was that, the first time?
JANE: Well, Jeffrey was asking me, you know, You really need to focus on what you want to do; you can't be broad. You know, do you want to be an opera singer? Do you want to do theater? Do you want to be an actress or model? We just sort of discussed that. He said, Well, you know, I know everybody. I know all the agents. I know all the photographers. I know, you know, the owner of Victoria's Secret. So I can make things happen, but you just have to be ready for it.
JANE: The conversation just sort of ended abruptly. It was in his office. And he just took my hand and he said, Follow me.
MS. MOE: Could you please describe for the jury what happened when he took you inside the pool house.
JANE: He took me in the pool house. And on the right-hand side was this couch, futon-looking thing. And he just proceeded to pull me over. And he sat in the corner and he didn't say a word. And he just pulled his pants down. He was wearing sweatpants. And he pulled me on top of himself and he proceeded to masturbate on me. And then he just -- he got up and he went into the bathroom and, like, cleaned himself up, and then acted like nothing happened.
JANE: Well, I was frozen in fear. I'd never seen a penis before, let alone not seen anything like this.
MS. MOE: After the incident that you just described, did you continue spending time with Maxwell and Epstein in Palm Beach?
MS. MOE: After that day that you just described, did there ever come a time when you saw Ghislaine Maxwell without her clothes on?
JANE: The three of us were just spending time together hanging out and talking. And then all of a sudden, in that same manner, just abruptly said, you know, Follow me. And we went upstairs. I followed them up this -- felt like a winding staircase, up into Jeffrey's bedroom.
MS. MOE: Once you got to the bedroom with Epstein and Maxwell that day, could you please describe for the jury what happened next.
JANE: They moved me over to the bed and took their clothes off and started to like sort of, like, fondle each other and sort of, like, kind of casually giggling about it. And I was just standing there. And he asked me to take my top off. And then, you know, sort of just there were hands everywhere. And Jeffrey proceeded to masturbate again. And Ghislaine was like rubbing on him and kissing on him and, you know, fondling. And then that was it.
MS. MOE: After the incident that you just described, did your visits to Epstein's house in Palm Beach include sexual contact?
MS. MOE: And I just want to be clear about this. For the incident that you just described when you were alone in a room with Epstein and Maxwell, how old were you when that happened for the first time?
MS. MOE: After that day, did your visits to Epstein's house in Palm Beach include sexual contact?
MS. MOE: I'll ask you now about what happened during those incidents. Were there times when you were alone with Epstein and Maxwell when you were 14?
MS. MOE: What kinds of things would happen when you were alone with Epstein and Maxwell when you were 14?
MS. MOE: When you were 14 years old and there were times where you were alone with Maxwell and Epstein, what kinds of sexual contact would occur during those incidents?
JANE: It would be them leading me to a massage table and showing me how Jeffrey likes to be massaged.
JANE: Like, he -- he liked -- like, very hard, like -- like, rubbing his shoulders really hard, and like twisting his nipples hard, and rubbing his feet hard and, like, his head.
JANE: Just showing me, you know, what he likes, what -- you know, what men like, what women like, you know, sort of touching on breasts and touching his penis.
JANE: I would say that it seemed very casual, like it was -- like it was very normal, like it was not a big deal.
JANE: Well, it made me feel confused because that did not feel normal to me; I'd never seen anything like this or felt any of this, and it was very embarrassing. You know, it's all these mixed emotions. When you're 14, you have no idea what's going on.
MS. MOE: During these incidents we've been discussing when you were 14, did you touch Epstein's body?
MS. MOE: When you were alone with Maxwell and Epstein when you were 14, did anyone ever use a sex toy?
MS. MOE: I'm sorry to ask you this, but could you please describe for the jury what would happen during those incidents.
JANE: He liked to, like, use, like, vibrators that were different sizes; and even, like, those -- like -- like the back massagers that were, like, really, you know, painful.
MS. MOE: Earlier, I believe you said that during these incidents, you touched Epstein everywhere. Can you explain for the jury what you meant by that.
JANE: I meant he -- he wanted to be massaged really from head to toe. He liked his head rubbed, his shoulders, he liked his nipples squeezed, his feet and his penis.
MS. MOE: Were there ever sexual interactions with Maxwell and Epstein when other people were present as well?
MS. MOE: I want to talk with you about that in a few minutes. The incidents you've been describing where other people were present, how would they typically start?
MS. MOE: Of course. When there were incidents between you and Maxwell when other people were present, how did incidents like that typically start?
JANE: It would be other people spending time at the house, sort of hanging out, seemingly casually. And then it was, once again, sort of, it seemed just abruptly everything would stop. And someone, Ghislaine or Jeffrey, would sort of summon everyone to, you know, follow to a room.
MS. MOE: During these incidents where other people were present, what would Maxwell typically do?
JANE: Well, she, along with others, would just start taking their clothes off. And Jeffrey would get on the massage table, and it would just, you know, sort of turn into this orgy.
MS. MOE: During incidents like this where other people were present, what kinds of sex acts would occur?
MS. MOE: If there were times when she was present and times when she wasn't present, approximately how often would she be present for group sessions like this?
MS. MOE: During these incidents where other people were present, were there ever sex toys that were used?
MS. MOE: The other people who were in the room during incidents like this, what was their gender?
MS. MOE: During these incidents when other people were present, were there any -- were there any particular acts that Epstein particularly liked or requested?
JANE: It was -- it looked like maybe it was light, because it was off the master bathroom, which was sort of -- it had like a beachy feel.
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes.
(Counsel conferred)
BY MS. MOE:
MS. MOE: Earlier, you were describing an incident when Maxwell was in the room when you were 14. Just to be clear, during the incidents you've been describing to the jury when you were 14, was Maxwell in the room?
MS. MOE: I want to focus now on the years when you were 14, 15, and 16. About how many times did you travel with them during those years?
MS. MOE: I want to talk about some of the locations that you just mentioned. Did some of those trips include travel to New York?
MS. MOE: Thank you. Could you please describe for the jury what the house on the Upper East Side looked like.
JANE: Well, it looked more like a building than a house. It was eight stories, his massive eight-story house building where you walk through these giant doors and then there was, like, another security door to go in. And it had an elevator and it was eight stories.
JANE: It was -- it was very dark, I felt. You know, very, very -- like an old building. Lots of stone, you know, old wood, and lots of, like, fabric wallpaper, like red curtains, lots of artwork, statues, paintings.
MS. MOE: When you spent time in the house, what, if anything, did you notice about the artwork, the statues, and the paintings?
JANE: I thought some of it was a little creepy personally. There was, you know, like, animals and giant, like, paintings that looked kind of -- I don't know how you would -- how I would describe it, but just felt uncomfortable.
JANE: It all sort of seemed like to have a dark theme, like it was kind of, you know, intimidating and dark and, like, animal heads and strange things.
JANE: Paintings of naked women and orgies and things like that. It didn't seem very unusual at this point.
MS. MOE: When you would spend time inside that house in New York, how did you feel when you were inside the house?
JANE: Intimidated. It wasn't a very warm place; you didn't feel very, maybe, safe. I kind of felt like -- you always kind of felt like someone is watching you. You didn't feel free to roam around exactly.
MS. MOE: What rooms in the house did you spend time in when you would stay in the house in New York?
JANE: What rooms would I spend time in? The room that I was given, which was the guest room on the eighth floor, or Jeffrey's bedroom, his bathroom, the massage room, or his office or the kitchen.
MS. MOE: Earlier, you described having sexual contact with Epstein and Maxwell in Palm Beach. Did that ever happen when you traveled with them?
MS. MOE: Can you describe for the jury what kinds of sexual acts would happen when you traveled to New York when you were 14, 15, and 16?
JANE: It was a lot of the same. If it wasn't an orgy in the massage room, it was in Jeffrey's bedroom, and that would be mostly me alone with him.
MS. MOE: What would happen when you were alone with him in the New York house when you were 14, 15, and 16?
JANE: Well, he would get naked and get on his bed. And he would pull me on top of him and ask me to take my clothes off. Do you want me to describe in detail?
MS. MOE: I'm sorry to ask, but if you could explain for the jury what would happen during these incidents.
JANE: So he would show me what he likes. And basically, he would -- he would use vibrators on me, he would put his fingers in my vagina, he would start to masturbate, and he would ask me to straddle his face. He would ask me to, like, squeeze his nipples really hard while he came.
MS. MOE: Did all of the things that you just described happen on trips to New York when you were 14, 15, and 16?
MS. MOE: You testified that you were mostly alone with him when these incidents occurred in the New York house when you were 14, 15, and 16. Just to be clear, were there times when Maxwell was present during those years?
MS. MOE: Can you please describe for the jury what the massage room in the New York house looked like.
JANE: Well, it was off the master bathroom, and it looked like it was maybe supposed to be a giant walk-in closet. And it was very dark. There was a built-in bookcase on the right-hand side, and there was a stereo system. And there was, like, music playing. And I don't know if it was painted dark, but -- or maybe that was the lighting, but it sort of had this, like, red mood. And then there was just a giant black massage table in the middle of it.
MS. MOE: Where did you spend most of your time on the trip to New Mexico with Maxwell and Epstein?
JANE: I just remember that it was this giant ranch sort of in the middle of nowhere. And it seemed very empty on the interior, meaning there wasn't really any other people around.
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JANE: I just remember someone, at one point, just came into the room and said Jeffrey wants to see you and then escorted me to see him.
MS. MOE: When that person came into your room and told you that he wanted to see you, how did you feel?
MS. MOE: During that trip to New Mexico, was your bedroom in the same building as Epstein and Maxwell's bedrooms?
MS. MOE: When you traveled with Epstein and Maxwell, was there ever a time when you had trouble getting on a flight?
JANE: Well, I had traveled with them and I had to fly back to Palm Beach to go to school on a Monday, and I traveled with them on a private jet. Then, to get back, I was taking a commercial flight, but I was only 15, so I didn't have a driver's license or any ID, I didn't have a learner's permit yet. So I had no ID to get on the airplane.
JANE: I remember calling and freaking out, saying how am I going to get on this plane. And Ghislaine made it happen for me. She sort of called somebody and helped me get on that flight.
MS. MOE: Earlier, you testified that Maxwell assisted with your travel arrangements on these trips when you were 14, 15, and 16. Could you explain to the jury how Maxwell assisted with your travel during these trips?
JANE: Well, sometimes it would be -- Jeffrey would ask her, hey, can you get -- not Jane, you know, tickets and the times and whatnot and make the arrangements to be picked up.
MS. MOE: You testified that this began when you were 14. Can you explain to the jury how old you were when you moved away from Palm Beach?
MS. MOE: Can you describe for the jury what you looked like when you were ages 14, 15, 16, and 17.
JANE: Oh, I was -- I was kind of short. I was very thin. I was flat-chested until I was almost 16.
MS. MOE: If you could please take a look at the binder in front of you on the witness stand. I'd ask you to just turn to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 107. Do you recognize that?
JANE: That is a picture of myself at 15 years old when I thought it was a really good idea to bleach my own hair at home, which was not a good idea.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government Exhibit 107 is admitted under seal consistent with my ruling allowing this witness to testify under a pseudonym to protect her privacy.
(Government's Exhibit 107 received in evidence)
MS. MOE: Jane, if you could please take a look at the binder in front of you and turn to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 108. Do you recognize that?
MS. MENNINGER: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. Government Exhibit 108 is admitted under seal consistent with my ruling, allowing this witness to testify using a pseudonym.
(Government's Exhibit 108 received in evidence)
MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. May the jurors turn to Government Exhibits 107 and 108 in their binders.
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes, please. Pick up your binders and look at GX107 and GX108.
BY MS. MOE:
MS. MOE: So again, just to be clear, now that we're all looking at Government Exhibit 107, approximately how old were you when that photograph was taken?
MS. MOE: Turning to Government Exhibit 108, approximately how old were you when that photograph was taken?
MS. MOE: I want to step back and ask you a little bit about your home life during the years we've been talking about. When you were 14 to 17 and living in Florida, can you describe for the jury what your home life was like during those years?
JANE: Well, it was -- it was not great. My father had just passed away, sort of suddenly, and we found ourselves losing our home and moving into a pool house and not being allowed to grieve the loss of my father and having a very depressed mom at home.
MS. MOE: I think you mentioned that you felt like you weren't allowed to grieve your father. Can you explain to the jury what you meant by that?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Relevance.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. You may answer.
JANE: Well, I grew up with a mother who didn't allow us to talk about our feelings because that was a sign of weakness. So grieving would be a part of that because she was very concerned about appearance and what we would look like and that you always sort of put a pretty face on. So we really didn't discuss those kinds of things at home and weren't allowed to discuss it with anyone else. So, being a kid and losing your dad and not being allowed to talk about it, not having anyone to talk to about it, it was really difficult.
MS. MOE: During the years that we've been talking about, did your mother know that you were spending time with Epstein and Maxwell?
JANE: Not in detail, but, you know, my mom was so enamored with the idea that these wealthy affluent people took an interest in me.
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. We've strayed into hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just one moment, please. Overruled with respect to the answer that's been given, but is that the end of the question line, Ms. Moe?
MS. MOE: Your Honor, this testimony is offered for the effect on the listener. We ask that the witness be able to explain what is going on during this time period and how that affected her.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may ask that question.
BY MS. MOE:
MS. MOE: During the time period that we've been talking about when you were 14, 15, and 16, did your mother ever talk to you about Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. That was a different question.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll sustain. If you reframe the question to elicit the information you indicated as opposed to asking what her mother said, you may proceed.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
JUDGE NATHAN: Why don't we take our midafternoon break, because the jurors' snacks are here and it's time for that. So we'll take an approximately 10-minute break, members of the jury. Thank you. See you in about 10 minutes.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury not present)
(Witness excused)
JUDGE NATHAN: Everyone may be seated. Go ahead, Ms. Moe.
MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor, I'd like to ask the witness about her conversations with her mother during this time period about Epstein and Maxwell. As I think the witness began explaining during this time period, her mother would tell her about how great they were, how enamored she was with them, and that I expect she would say that that had an effect on her. None of that is offered for the truth, but for the effect on the listener. I think the defense has put at issue in this case why the victims continued seeing the defendant and Epstein and why they didn't tell about what happened to them later, and the circumstances under which all of this was happening, including her home life, the effect of her own mother and how her mother would talk about Maxwell and Epstein are all part of that and it's directly responsive to that issue.
JUDGE NATHAN: The initial questions that you're asking, you expect the witness to say what exactly was communicated to the witness by her mother?
MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. I expect the witness to testify that her mother encouraged the relationship and would often talk about them favorably and tell them she should be grateful for everything they were doing for her.
JUDGE NATHAN: And you're not seeking to offer that information for the truth, but for the effect that it had on the witness?
JUDGE NATHAN: So you'll accept a limiting instruction?
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Menninger.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I think the simple way to ask the question is, how did you feel, and if it was based on something your mother said to you, without getting into the content of what the mother had communicated to her. I think it's a real issue that may come up later with things that the mother has said to any number of people, and I feel like this opens the door to many other conversations that relate to the mother. So I'm not sure that just asking -- giving a bunch of hearsay from the mom, saying we're asking it for the effect on the listener and precluding cross examination about other conversations with the mom would be appropriate.
JUDGE NATHAN: So I don't know what you have in mind coming down the road. I think it's proffered by the government at this point anyway. I think there might be a way to streamline it. Ms. Moe, maybe you could think about that. But as proffered by the government, it's not being offered for the truth, it's being offered for the effect on the listener. I would give the jury a limiting instruction that the witness's testimony regarding what her mother said is not being offered for the truth of those statements, but for the impact or effect that it had on the witness. We'll keep it limited, Ms. Moe, as to eliciting statements for an out-of-court witness, but with that caveat. And then tell me, Ms. Menninger, what your concern down the road was so I have it in my head.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, if you're admitting it with that limiting instruction, I think we'll take up the issues with other statements by the mom when they come up.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. Just to preview in order to streamline things because we're on the subject, I expect the next few questions to be about the issue of disclosure. In particular, I expect to ask the witness whether there was ever a time when she talked to a guidance counselor when she was a kid and whether she came to learn that her mother had found out that she talked to the guidance counselor, and I want to talk to her about how her mother reacted to that and told her that she should never talk about what goes on in their house. We're offering that, again, not for the truth of anything, it's certainly not our position that she shouldn't have told someone that that is a true statement. It's offered to show the environment in which she was living and how that affected her and affected her decision not to disclose what was going on with her.
JUDGE NATHAN: But in particular, you want the witness to testify that her mother told her not to report what happened, not to tell anyone what happened. Did I get that right?
MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. I expect that she'll testify that she spoke with a guidance counselor after her father passed away, that her mother found out that she had spoken with a guidance counselor and had a very strong negative reaction to that, and told her that she shouldn't be talking about personal family matters and shouldn't be talking about what happens in their household.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Menninger.
MS. MENNINGER: I have no objection to that, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you for previewing it. Anything else to take up?
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Menninger?
MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. Not now.
JUDGE NATHAN: We'll take a short break. Thank you.
(Recess)
JUDGE NATHAN: Nothing to take up; correct?
MS. MENNINGER: Correct, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: We'll bring in the jury.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you, everyone. Ms. Moe, you may continue with your direct examination of the witness.
BY MS. MOE:
MS. MOE: Before the break, we were talking about your interactions with your mother during this time period when you were 14, 15, and 16. I want to ask you, during that time period, did you ever talk with your mother about Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm going to give the limiting instruction now. Members of the jury, the witness may provide some testimony regarding things that her mother said to her. I instruct you that that testimony is not being offered for the truth of the matter of what was said, but instead for the purposes of its impact on the listener of this witness. You may proceed.
MS. MOE: Sorry about that. During this time period that we've been talking about when you were 14 and 15 and 16, did you ever talk with your mother about Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell?
MS. MOE: What kinds of things would she say to you about Epstein and Maxwell during that time period.
MS. MOE: Of course. When would you talk to your mother during those years about Maxwell and Epstein, what, if anything, would she say to you about her impressions of them?
JANE: My mother seemed very impressed and enamored with the sort of the wealth, the affluence. She thought they seemed very generous and they must think I'm special and that I should be grateful for the attention that I received.
MS. MOE: During this time period, did you ever tell your mother about the sexual abuse that you were experiencing when were you at Epstein's house?
JANE: Because I felt very ashamed, I felt very disgusted, I was confused, I didn't know if it was my fault, and my mother and I did not have that kind of a relationship. We didn't talk about our feelings. We weren't allowed to. I was raised in a household where you were sort of spoken to, and you don't speak unless you're spoken to, and I would be afraid that I would be in trouble if I said something.
MS. MOE: During those same years, did you tell your brothers or any of your friends that you were being sexually abused by Maxwell and Epstein?
JANE: Because how do you tell or describe any of this to any one of your peers or your siblings when all you feel is shame and disgust and confusion and you don't even know how you ended up there.
MS. MOE: Were there ever times when you were 14 or 15 and 16, while all of this was happening, where you thought about hurting yourself?
JANE: Well, it was a multitude of things, of my father dying and losing our home and then having a manic depressed mother who didn't know how to cope and know how to take care of us and, you know, just kind of feeling like it was hopeless, I guess. It didn't seem like there was a lot of joy to look forward to and it was just -- it was all -- it was very painful. It was all very difficult.
MS. MOE: Did there come a time when you were a kid when you spoke to a school guidance counselor?
JANE: Well, actually, she asked to speak to me. She called me in her office and said -- asked me what was going on at home, if we had been or I had been in grief counseling and how my mother was doing. So I told her how I was feeling and how sad I was and, you know, how unavailable my mother was and how unsupportive and there was really no one for me to talk to. So I spoke to her and she was -- she was lovely and she would -- when she would see me. She would say if you need a place to go, just come to my office and sit there and we'll talk.
MS. MOE: After you spoke with the guidance counselor, did there come a time when you learned that your mother had become aware about the conversations you were having with the guidance counselor?
JANE: Yes. I came home from school one day and my mother said that the guidance counselor had called her and had said that she wanted to see her because she was very worried about me. My mother proceeded to berate me and scream at me and slap me and tell me how dare I talk about myself and our family and that it was an embarrassment, and that you don't tell other people about your feelings or what's going on at home.
MS. MOE: I want to pause here and ask a few questions about the sexual abuse you described experiencing when you were 14 and when you were 15 and when you were 16. Just to be clear, were there times when that happened when it was just you and Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. MOE: Were there times when that happened when it was you and Epstein and Maxwell and other women?
MS. MOE: Approximately how many times during the years that you were 14 and 15 and 16 was Ghislaine Maxwell in the room while you were being sexually abused by Jeffrey Epstein?
JANE: It's hard to remember because I was abused pretty much every time that I would go over to his house and it all started to seem the same after a while, whether it was just him or there were other women involved or me and Jeffrey and Ghislaine, it all started to seem the same after a while and you just become numb to it.
MS. MOE: Is it fair to say that she was frequently in the room while you were being sexually abused by Jeffrey Epstein when you were 14, 15, and 16?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll sustain. Please rephrase.
MS. MOE: Was Maxwell in the room just once while you were being sexually abused by Jeffrey Epstein?
JUDGE NATHAN: Sure.
MS. MOE: I want to ask you about that third category that I asked you about the incidents where it was you and Maxwell and Epstein and other people who were in the room. What was typically happening before incidents like that would start?
JANE: It would typically be something very casual, like hanging out by the pool or sitting around in a living room or in the kitchen and just be, like, very seemingly casual hangouts.
MS. MOE: When you would spend time at Epstein's house in Palm Beach, were there other women present in the house?
JUDGE NATHAN: Sure.
MS. MOE: How would you typically transition from hanging around the house or hanging around the pool to the incidents that you've described?
MS. MOE: Can I ask you to please look at the binder in front of you. If you could please turn to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 245. Thank you. Do you recognize that?
MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. GX245 is admitted under seal consistent with my ruling, allowing this witness to testify using a pseudonym.
(Government's Exhibit 245 received in evidence)
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes, please. You may pick up your binder and turn to GX245.
BY MS. MOE:
JANE: Well, the large -- larger photograph in the back is a modeling picture of me, approximately age 15. The one in the front is like my first head shot at about 19.
MS. MOE: For the smaller picture in the corner, did you give a copy of that photograph to Jeffrey Epstein?
JANE: Well, my mother made me send him a picture after I had gotten my first big job, and that's when I had taken this picture and, in fairness, I used to write really bad captions for people when I would write -- sign a headshot. So that was my attempt at being cool, I guess.
MS. MOE: I want to ask you, Jane, how did you feel at the time about the attention that Epstein and Maxwell were paying to you when you were in middle school and high school?
JANE: Initially, I felt special. You know, I didn't -- I didn't really have much support or attention at home, so he was someone who was seemingly looking out for me and caring for me is how it felt.
MS. MOE: In your adult life, how has what happened to you with Maxwell and Epstein affected your relationships?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Relevance.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment.
MS. MENNINGER: May we have a sidebar if there is any --
JUDGE NATHAN: Let's do that.
(Continued on next page)
(Pages 344 to 347 SEALED)
(In open court)
JUDGE NATHAN: You may proceed, Ms. Moe.
BY MS. MOE:
MS. MOE: Let me back up and ask you a few questions. You testified in the beginning Epstein and Maxwell made you feel special. Can you explain to the jury what it is they did that made you feel special when it first started?
JANE: Well, they made me feel special by spending time with me, talking to me, asking me about my family, my interests, what I was doing, what I was doing in school, what I wanted to do with my life. They took me to the movies, they took me shopping, and took me on field trips, I guess you could say.
MS. MOE: And to be clear, during this time, did Maxwell talk with you about your school and your family and what was going on with you and your life?
MS. MOE: You testified that you felt this way in the beginning. Did there come a time when that changed?
MS. MOE: Can you explain for the jury how has what Maxwell and Epstein did to you affected your relationships as an adult?
JANE: That's a loaded question. Sure you could ask a lot of people their opinions on that. How do you navigate a healthy relationship with a broken compass? I didn't even understand what real love is supposed to look like. It ruined my self-esteem, my selfworth, I don't know how men were supposed to treat me and how I was supposed to reciprocate any of that. It led me to not trust people and probably make bad decisions in future boyfriends.
MS. MOE: Earlier, we were talking about the years that you lived in Palm Beach and about the time when you moved away from Palm Beach. Can you tell the jury, approximately when did you move away from Palm Beach?
MS. MOE: When you moved to New York City when you were 17 to go to the Professional Children's School, who paid for your tuition?
MS. MOE: During that year when you were a senior in high school, did you continue engaging in sexualized massages with Jeffrey Epstein?
(Continued on next page)
BY MS. MOE:
MS. MOE: During the year that you were -- withdrawn. After you moved away, did you continue to travel with Maxwell and Epstein?
MS. MOE: When you traveled with Epstein in your early twenties, did you travel in his private jet?
JANE: Because I fell madly in love with someone, and we got very quickly engaged. And Jeffrey would call me. And my new fiancé would ask, Who is this person who calls you and that you sort of have to drop everything for to take that call? And I said, Oh, it's -- that's my godfather. And he just kind of said, Well, what do you mean your godfather? You just tell him you'll call him back. I said, No, it doesn't work that way. And he had a pretty abrasive personality himself, this guy. And he said, Well, don't call him back. And that was sort of -- well, that wasn't the end of it. I didn't call him back. And then he tried contacting me again and leaving me voicemails that became increasingly agitated in saying that I need to call him back, he was coming into town to visit, and he wanted to see me, and that I need to be grateful and remember what he's done for me. Because my mother had still been living in an apartment in New York after I moved away that he was paying for. And then I didn't return his call. And do you want me to continue?
MS. MOE: I think you mentioned that the person you were dating at that time you were engaged to. Did you end up marrying him?
MS. MOE: Did there come a time in the late 2000s when you were in a romantic relationship with someone else?
MS. MOE: While you were together, did you ever tell Matt that you'd been sexually abused by Maxwell and Epstein?
JANE: I told him because that was around the time that you started seeing on the news that Epstein had been arrested and, you know, you sort of would see his face everywhere and it would make me very emotional. And my boyfriend at the time would notice that and kind of wonder. And you know -- and then there would be moments of vulnerability that I sort of started to share, like, some of the things that had happened to me, not in detail, but, you know, it took a long time to really share any of that stuff with him.
MS. MOE: Directing your attention to September of 2019, were you interviewed by the FBI that month?
MS. MOE: Before that time, had you ever spoken with law enforcement about Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?
MS. MOE: Before you were interviewed by the FBI in September of 2019, had you ever spoken with law enforcement about what had happened to you with Maxwell and Epstein?
MS. MOE: Before that first interview, had you ever spoken with law enforcement about what happened to you with Maxwell and Epstein?
MS. MOE: At the time that you sued Ghislaine Maxwell, did you also sue the Estate of Jeffrey Epstein at that same time?
MS. MOE: After you filed that lawsuit, did you participate in a victim compensation fund for victims of Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. MOE: As part of the settlement that you received from the fund, were you required to dismiss your lawsuit against Maxwell and the Estate of Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. MOE: And did you dismiss the lawsuit against Maxwell after you received an award from the fund?
MS. MOE: Based on your understanding, will the jury's verdict in this case affect the award that you received from the victim compensation fund?
MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. I have to hear you.
(Continued on next page)
(At sidebar)
JUDGE NATHAN: The question is whether the jury's verdict will affect what she receives from the victim compensation fund?
MS. MENNINGER: Right. I think she has a lack of personal knowledge about that, your Honor. It's a legal conclusion, a legal question. She's not the right witness to talk about that.
JUDGE NATHAN: You want the jury -- you want to put in front of the jury that the involvement in this case affects payout from the legal compensation fund.
MS. MENNINGER: Well, your Honor, this is something that we litigated, which is, any suggestion that the victim's compensation fund was based on some kind of finding of validity of her claims.
JUDGE NATHAN: I agree with that. I don't see what that has to do with this question.
MS. MENNINGER: I think she has told this story to the victim compensation fund, they have given her money, and now if she is found -- if our client was found not guilty, for example, I don't know what the ramifications would be for a fund who has determined --
JUDGE NATHAN: Well, the question to be phrased is what her understanding is. I mean, you have well put in issue the question of whether this fund impacts her motivation to tell the truth or not, which is precisely why I granted the Rule 17 subpoena and, I suspect, in the opening raised this issue precisely. So whether it's true or not, the question is what is her understanding. So if the question is phrased that way, I will overrule the objection.
MS. MENNINGER: I still think it's a legal conclusion, your Honor, asking someone, you know, what is the effect of a contract or what is -- how can a contract be dissolved. It's just not within the ken of a person who is not --
JUDGE NATHAN: I can give a limiting instruction that testimony is not being offered for -- as a legal instruction, but for the witness's understanding.
MS. MENNINGER: Sure. That would be better --
JUDGE NATHAN: Any objection?
MS. MOE: No, your Honor. I think this is very commonplace, it happens all the time. For example, when cooperators testify about their understanding of whether, for example, a verdict in a case affects their cooperation agreement with the government, I don't think there's a limiting instruction; because, again, the question is about this person's understanding. I can make that very clear when I ask the question. It's directly responsive to defense arguments about whether this witness has a motive to lie.
MS. MENNINGER: In cooperating situations, your Honor, the sentence happens after the testimony.
JUDGE NATHAN: Well, they are not the same, but I think the point is the same. I'll give a limiting instruction that -- after she testifies, that the jury should understand she's not providing legal instruction, but testifying as to her understanding in response to the question. And so with that -- and you'll say the question again, make sure it's phrased from her understanding. With that, I'll overrule. I don't see any reason this should be sealed.
MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor.
MS. MOE: Just to avoid a second sidebar, I just wanted to flag, after asking this question, I expect the next question I would ask would be just simply, Do you have a financial stake in the outcome of this case? Again, that's about her understanding, whether she believes she has a financial -- which is exactly what the defense suggested in their opening.
JUDGE NATHAN: Oh, there's no doubt.
JUDGE NATHAN: You have an objection to that question?
MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. But I think she does have a financial stake --
JUDGE NATHAN: That's what you argue to the jury.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, one other thing. If she did, in fact, give a statement to law enforcement in May of 2019, it hasn't been disclosed to us.
MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. My understanding, I was at that very first meeting. I can double-check my notes, which we produced to the defense, it is September 2019.
JUDGE NATHAN: Do you want to refresh her recollection on the date or you don't have any notes from May 2099?
JUDGE NATHAN: You're certainly welcome to inquire.
MS. MENNINGER: Certainly, your Honor. On her dates.
MS. MOE: I'm sorry. My colleague is -- again, I don't remember this off the top of my head, but --
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I believe what is possibly happening in the witness's answer about May 2019 is that I believe before the September 2019 interview, FBI agents approached this witness and asked her if she was willing to be interviewed. She declined. And I believe that may have happened around May of 2019. So she may be confusing that as the first time she ever spoke with the FBI. But she was not substantively interviewed and did not give substantive statements until September of 2019.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Not sealed.
(In open court)
JUDGE NATHAN: You may proceed, Ms. Moe.
BY MS. MOE:
MS. MOE: Jane, based on your understanding, will the jury's verdict in this case affect the award that you received from the fund?
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll just instruct the jury the witness is not providing legal instruction, but responding to the question of her understanding.
MS. MOE: Before this trial, have you ever publicly revealed your identity as a victim of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell?
JANE: Because I've always just wanted to put this past me. I moved on with my life. I am proud that I have my own career, my own husband, my own children, and I work in the entertainment industry. And victim shaming is still very present to this day. And I was also afraid that it was going to affect my career if somebody looks at me and that's all they see and that they won't hire me based on that. So I didn't really want any part of it; I just wanted it to go away.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred)
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Thank you. Ms. Menninger, you may begin your cross-examination.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, consistent with past practice, I have a binder to provide to the witness in case electronics don't work.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Moe?
MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. So long as we are provided a copy with the item before they are reviewed, we have no objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Consistent with how we've been proceeding, you will be. Thank you. You may approach.
MS. MENNINGER: May I take off my mask, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes, you may.
(Pages 363 to 389 SEALED)
(Continued on next page)
JUDGE NATHAN: It's 5 o'clock. So we'll break for the evening. Members of the jury, thank you for your attention and diligence. I remind you to please bear in mind all of my instructions and rules as you break for the evening. And we'll start up again at the same time. Please arrive in time to grab some breakfast and get ready to go. We'll bring you out at 9:30. Thank you so much. Have a great evening.
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: The witness may step down for the evening. See you in the morning. I remind the witness and the government, since the witness is under cross-examination, other than logistical information, there won't be any communication on substance.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. Everyone may be seated.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: We have some matters to take up?
MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor. With respect to the Rule 16 issue, defendants Exhibit J36, what's never produced to the government in Rule 16, the Court set a Rule 16 production deadline of November 8th of this year. It appears that this may have been taken November 17th of this year, but just because it came into existence after that deadline does not excuse the defense from producing anything that they plan to offer in evidence in this trial. So this is a violation of Rule 16.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Menninger.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, that rule applies to any documents that we're offering in our case in chief, not as impeachment. In the government's presentation of evidence with this witness, they talked about a particular home and the characteristics of that home. I am impeaching the witness with an exhibit that presents a contrary home. The rule does not apply to impeachment material, it applies to things we intend to offer in our case in chief as per the rule.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, then this is extrinsic evidence that is inadmissible under the rules of evidence to impeach.
JUDGE NATHAN: So it's one page of J36; correct?
MS. MENNINGER: Correct, your Honor. I offered page 3, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: How did page 3 impeach?
MS. MENNINGER: Because it shows the house and the street that she lives on which is very different from what she described as her childhood home. She said we were homeless.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, A, that's not accurate, and B, I think it is a clear violation of Rule 408(b). They're trying to offer extrinsic evidence. It's not a prior inconsistent statement. It's not something that falls under the criminal convictions contemplated by Rule 609. This is clearly precluded by the rules of evidence.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll sustain. What's next?
MS. MENNINGER: On what grounds, your Honor? On a Rule 16 violation?
JUDGE NATHAN: Rule 16. She recognized the street. The document is a current photograph. She seemed to me that she recognized the street because the document indicated the street on it. She was reading the document. So also not impeaching.
MS. MENNINGER: We'll find another way to introduce it, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm sorry, can you --
MS. MENNINGER: We will try to find another way to introduce it.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, to the extent it's going to be introduced, it's in violation of Rule 16. I think to the extent there are other exhibits that the defense intends to offer that have not already been produced to us, we would ask that the Court order that they make those productions forthwith.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, we have a very different view of Rule 16. If it is an impeachment document, it is not covered by the rule. We will brief this tonight if your Honor would like. I have a very different view, apparently, than Ms. Comey.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, we do not believe that any prior inconsistent statements that would be admissible --
JUDGE NATHAN: It's not a prior inconsistent statement.
MS. COMEY: Exactly, your Honor. Nothing else is admissible as impeachment by my reading of the rules of evidence.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, anything that goes to the witness's memory, bias, motive, all of those are impeachment materials. Impeachment is not limited to prior inconsistent statements. That's just not the state of the law.
JUDGE NATHAN: You can brief it. So if the witness testifies I live in a blue house and you go out tonight and take a photograph of the house and it's a red house --
MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: -- and you want to introduce a photograph of the red house to impeach the testimony that she lives in a blue house, you show it to the government before or no?
MS. MENNINGER: I did just show it to the government.
JUDGE NATHAN: Before the beginning of the day?
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I believe it's impeachment and it comes in when it comes in. I did not believe that your Honor ordered us to produce impeachment materials prior to trial.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think we may need to brief this tonight.
JUDGE NATHAN: You'll brief it. You'll brief it. A specific example would be helpful. I suppose you can use this one complicated by the fact that my understanding of the testimony was that she was -- she said that's the street I lived on, reading a document that she had never seen before, from a photograph taken in 2021. So I suppose the question is, perhaps you could pick another example, or you could imagine that photograph without the information --
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, if I had a photograph from that time period, I certainly would have used it. That's the only thing available to me. I would say, your Honor, that the government has just introduced, today, photographs that were taken in the last year of Epstein home when we're talking about events that happened in '94, '95, and '96. So I'm not really sure.
JUDGE NATHAN: There was a witness who testified as to it being an accurate reflection of what the home looked like; right?
MS. MENNINGER: Without saying when, yes. A witness who continued to work for Mr. Epstein up until 2019.
JUDGE NATHAN: I mean, I suppose you're welcome to object to foundation, but there wasn't an objection to foundation. In any event, you'll brief whether the defense is obligated under Rule 16 to produce in advance to the government documents that clearly -- and we're not talking about statements.
MS. COMEY: That's correct, your Honor. We're talking about an exhibit like a photograph, something like this very exhibit seems like classical 16. So we'll brief it, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Certainly, there is at least two situations. There is the situation in which the witness said something and you couldn't have anticipated what they said and you have something that you want to impeach with it, you couldn't have produced that in advance. So the question is not that, but obviously when you anticipate particular testimony and you have material that you think impeaches that you intend to introduce as evidence through cross examination. Whether you're obligated under Rule 16 to turn that over in advance, that's the question. So government's objection, so when would you like to brief?
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may we have by 9:00 p.m. tonight?
JUDGE NATHAN: And Ms. Menninger? Or you could put in first. You tell me your preference.
MS. MENNINGER: If I could confer, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, is it all right if Ms. Drescher begins collecting the juror binders while we continue?
JUDGE NATHAN: Sure.
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, we would prefer to put in our support why this is not covered by Rule 16 by 9:00 p.m.
JUDGE NATHAN: You can do that. When would the government like to respond? You can simultaneously put in letters. Why don't we do that. You'll both put in letters at 9:00.
MS. COMEY: That's fine, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. We need to deal with the witness identifying information. How are we going to handle this, Ms. Moe?
MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. We appreciate an opportunity to confer with the defense about the subject matter at a high level of cross and what might be identified so we can troubleshoot these issues in advance in order to work on a solution that avoids wasting the jury's time and, most importantly, jeopardizing the privacy of a crime victim. We have previously reached out to defense to ask to confer about some of these issues. We would like to do that this evening. I am concerned that there may be topics that are identifying as to this victim and we would be happy to talk it through with defense counsel and work out a solution about anonymizing names or other issues as we continued all along in this case. So we ask the Court to direct the parties to meet and confer on that issue given the steaks of that issue in this case.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Menninger, the witness is on cross, so they can't confer with the witness. Any reason not to do that?
MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I see no reason not to confer with the government about a way that we can accommodate this.
JUDGE NATHAN: You can do that. If you have different views, you'll raise them with me by letter tonight if you come to a point of disagreement. Okay?
MS. MENNINGER: Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Anything else?
MS. MENNINGER: Not from us, your Honor. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: And just so -- I sealed the sidebar where we discussed identifying information about the witness and because I sealed a portion of the testimony so that the government can propose redactions.
JUDGE NATHAN: When will you do that by?
MS. MOE: Proposed redactions, your Honor? Your Honor, I'm not quite sure at what time this evening we'll receive the court transcript, but we'd be happy to do that perhaps by midday tomorrow.
JUDGE NATHAN: That's fine. I would just like to set a time for if I'm going to hear from you on disagreement as to how to proceed on cross so as to avoid public identifying information. What's a reasonable time for you to confer and put in a letter if there is disagreement?
MS. MOE: Your Honor, we'd be happy to confer following the court day today. With respect to any disagreements, we can file simultaneous letters at perhaps 10 o'clock this evening.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Menninger.
MS. MENNINGER: That's fine, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. What else do we need to address?
MS. MOE: Your Honor, we had just one issue to raise regarding the next witness. We just wanted to let the Court know, as the Court may recall, Jane testified earlier today about having disclosed having been abused to a person who we are identifying in this proceeding as Matt. We anticipate that Matt would be the next witness in this case who would be testifying about a prior consistent statement by Jane. We are offering that testimony under both prongs of Rule 801(d)(1), and I'd be happy to walk that through with the Court. With respect to the first prong of the rule --
JUDGE NATHAN: Is there an objection?
MS. STERNHEIM: I'd like to hear their bases.
JUDGE NATHAN: You have clarity on what the statement is?
MS. STERNHEIM: Well --
JUDGE NATHAN: I don't, so I don't know if you do or not.
MS. STERNHEIM: I think I would have to parse what the next witness is going to say with the testimony here because it doesn't dovetail as the government is suggesting.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Can you be specific?
MS. MOE: Of course, your Honor. I'd be happy to provide a proffer. I'd anticipate that Matt would testify that he was in a relationship with Jane in 2007, '08, and '09, and years thereafter. And during those years, he recalls having conversations with Jane in which Jane told him that when she was growing up as a kid, her family struggled financially and he asked her how they were able to pay for things when she was growing up, and she told him that there was this uncle or godfather-like figure when she was growing up who helped the family. I anticipate that Matt will testify that Jane told him during these conversations that the money was not for free, that she had to do things that she didn't want to do, that that included massages. I also anticipate that Matt would testify that there was a woman in the room and he recalls Jane describing that a woman was present while this happened who would make her and other girls who were in the room feel comfortable while it happened.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Sternheim.
MS. STERNHEIM: Your Honor, I think it's somewhat premature since the cross examination has not been concluded yet. I am mindful of the purpose why they're calling this witness, but I think we have to wait to see what happens in cross examination. I don't understand what they're asking for right now.
MS. MOE: Your Honor, defense counsel put this issue in their opening statement by challenging Jane's credibility and her memory in particular. So the foundation is in the record for a prior consistent statement to be admitted under both prongs of the rule. With respect to the first prong of 801(d)(1)(B), it is offered to rebut an express or implied charge the declarant recently fabricated it or acted from a recent improper influence or motive in so testifying. Here defense counsel, in opening statements, suggested to the jury that a recent motive to fabricate in this case was civil litigation in a particular Jeffrey Epstein victim compensation fund. So this statement is offered expressly to rebut that because, in fact, Jane had told someone about this a decade before that or more. With respect to the second prong of the rule, the statement is proper to rehabilitate the declarant's credibility as a witness when attacked on another ground. The advisory committee notes the rule expressly explained that one of the grounds for rehabilitation is when that witness's memory has been challenged, and here given this witness had made that statement much earlier in time closer to the events, this statement would be appropriate under the second prong of the rule, as well.
MS. STERNHEIM: My response is still I think we need to wait until her cross examination is over. I understand what they are intending to do. It has to be evaluated whether the statement that they allege she made to Matt is really a prior consistent statement on her.
JUDGE NATHAN: Isn't the question whether it's a prior consistent statement with what she testified on direct?
MS. STERNHEIM: It's not entirely clear because her statement to him is extraordinarily vague and he did research and put it together by himself.
JUDGE NATHAN: You can cross him on that.
MS. STERNHEIM: I understand that. I'm not challenging. I'm just saying that I think the full issue should be addressed at the conclusion of this witness's testimony.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. We'll address it at the conclusion of the witness's testimony. I understand the government's point to be that the prongs of the rule are both put in issue by the defense's opening, attacking, I suppose, all of the witness's credibility on memory, on recent fabrication, and monetary incentive. So I suppose the government's position, if I understand it, is that in light of that opening, any prior consistent statement of any of the witnesses comes in. Is that the contention?
MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. Defense counsel has kicked the door wide open. So under both prongs of the rule, all prior consistent statements of the witnesses in this case are admissible.
JUDGE NATHAN: Do you anticipate beyond the next witness the same issue occurring?
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Sternheim, your view is that the opening hasn't sufficiently put the specific credibility of each of the witnesses in issue such that the rule would allow prior consistent statements? I suppose the question is whether a particular statement being offered is consistent with the testimony, but I don't know that it has to be with respect to cross. It seems to me it has to be with respect to direct, because you asked the jury essentially to evaluate all of the witnesses' testimony as being motivated by memory issues, manipulation, and monetary motivations. So I think that's the issue. I'll certainly think about that question and then consider the -- I think this is a useful example. I'm happy to hear -- I mean, it strikes me that's right, but I'm happy to hear why that wouldn't be right.
MS. STERNHEIM: I'm not suggesting, I'm just asking for an opportunity to dovetail her testimony with the statement that is the support for the next witness's testimony. I'm not seeking to preclude, I'm just asking for an opportunity on the issue of prior consistency.
JUDGE NATHAN: We can pick this up in the morning, but the government made a specific proffer of anticipated testimony based on direct testimony, which is to say -- I mean, when the witness is testifying, you could say that's not consistent with the prior testimony. Is that what you want to do?
MS. STERNHEIM: I'm just asking for an opportunity to compare it. I am not standing here saying I'm opposing it.
JUDGE NATHAN: I got it. So it's not about the cross of this witness, it's about the direct of the next witness; fair to say?
MS. STERNHEIM: Yes. And there could be redirect that might, in some way, have bearing on this, but I will review it in connection with the direct examination of this witness.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you for previewing it. We'll take it as it comes. I understand the government's position, I understand Ms. Sternheim's request to evaluate it. It's the specific testimony that comes in on direct of the next witness in light of what happens yet on cross. Anything else?
JUDGE NATHAN: We'll meet again at 8:45. As soon as we have the jury, we'll take up issues, I'll see a briefing, and hopefully we can get resolution and we'll start with the jury as soon as there here. We're adjourned.
(Adjourned to December 1, 2021 at 8:45 a.m.) * * *