Lawrence Visoski — Direct/Cross/Redirect (Continued)
2,035 linesMS. COMEY: Good morning, Mr. Visoski.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Good morning, Ms. Comey.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to pick up where we left off yesterday talking about Mr. Epstein's employees and his office.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Comey, could you adjust the microphone a little bit higher.
MS. COMEY: Yes. Thank you, your Honor. Is this better?
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes, that's better.
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, I'd like to pick up where we left off yesterday talking about Mr. Epstein's office and his employees.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Based on your interactions with and observations of Mr. Epstein's employees, where in the hierarchy did Ms. Maxwell fall?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Ms. Maxwell was number 2. It was definitely Mr. Epstein was a big number 1.
MS. COMEY: What makes you say that Ms. Maxwell was the number 2 in your experience?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She was the one that pretty much handled most of the finance, my expenses, spending in the office.
MS. COMEY: What, if any, assistants did Mr. Epstein have, other than Ms. Maxwell?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: As far as secretaries or personal assistants, is that what you mean?
MS. COMEY: Personal assistants.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: He had an array of personal assistants, almost like professional shoppers, because there was a lot of items that needed to be purchased for all of the properties that were being acquired. So there were several people that were personal assistants.
MS. COMEY: How about Ms. Maxwell, did she have personal assistants?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I would consider Ms. Maxwell a personal assistant.
MS. COMEY: My question was, did Ms. Maxwell have her own personal assistants.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Oh, I see. Yes, she had assistants, as well.
MS. COMEY: What were the names of some of the personal assistants you remember?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Throughout the entire -- or we're talking 1994 to '04?
MS. COMEY: Yes.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The first one that comes to mind would be Sarah Kellen. Then there was another woman named Kimberly, the last name escapes me. Those are the two that are coming to mind right away.
MS. COMEY: About when did you meet Sarah Kellen?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It had to have been the late '90s to my recollection.
MS. COMEY: What did Sarah Kellen look like between when you first met her and the mid 2000s?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She looked the same except for different hair lengths and maybe a little different hair color.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, I would like to please pull up for the witness, the parties, and the Court Government Exhibits 327 and 310, please.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize these?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: What are they?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The photo on the left is Ms. Sarah Kellen with the green dress. And then to the right in the photo, it's actually a photo of myself at the front of the aircraft. Then there is Mr. Epstein. And that's also Sarah Kellen in the photo.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers these two exhibits in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government Exhibit 327 and 310 are admitted. You may publish.
(Government's Exhibits 327, 310 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: While Ms. Drescher puts these up on the screen for the jury, Mr. Visoski, could you tell us, for Government Exhibit 310, the photo on the right, could you tell us what we see in that photo?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: In that photo, that's the one with the aircraft in it?
MS. COMEY: Yes.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That appears to be a photo of -- it was probably the late '90s, mid to late '90s, Mr. Epstein purchased that twin engine Cessna 421, and he had a runway at the ranch. So that photo appears to be taken at the ranch at one of the ends of the runway, judging by the square, you know, the asphalt bottom with the square on top there, because it was a dirt runway and at the end of the runway, there was an asphalt base to turn the aircraft around. But in the photo, obviously, it's a picture of me with the luggage and Mr. Epstein and Ms. Kellen.
MS. COMEY: Thank you. We can take that down, Ms. Drescher. I would like to now pull up for the witness, the Court, and the parties Government Exhibits 334 and 335, please.
MS. COMEY: Do you recognize these, Mr. Visoski?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: Who do we see starting in Government Exhibit 334, the one on the left?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The one on the left is a picture of Ms. Maxwell and to the right of her is a photo of Ms. Kellen.
MS. COMEY: How about Government Exhibit 335, who do we see in that exhibit?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The same, Ms. Maxwell on the left and Ms. Kellen on the right.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers these in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government 334 and 335 are admitted and you may publish.
(Government's Exhibits 334, 335 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. Ms. Drescher, could we please put those up for the jury. We can take those down. Thank you.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, about when do you recall first visiting Mr. Epstein's ranch in New Mexico?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I believe the ranch -- his ranch was purchased in approximately 1994. I'd call it the mid '90s.
MS. COMEY: About how often did you visit that ranch during your employment with Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I visited that ranch every visit that Mr. Epstein had to the ranch.
MS. COMEY: And about how often did Mr. Epstein go to the ranch?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It wasn't that often. Certainly not enough. It was probably, maybe five, six times a year.
MS. COMEY: What was that ranch called?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was called Zorro Ranch.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up Government Exhibit 328 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: Do you recognize this?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: What is it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is a photo of the entrance driveway to Mr. Epstein's main property on Zorro Ranch.
MS. COMEY: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of a portion of Mr. Epstein's property in New Mexico?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it is.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government 328 is admitted and you may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 328 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. Ms. Drescher, could we please show this to the jurors.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: While that's up, Mr. Visoski, would you please describe the ranch property that Mr. Epstein owned in New Mexico.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The property in general, the whole --
MS. COMEY: Yes, please, the whole property.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The whole property. You started entering the ranch off of Highway 41 in Stanley, New Mexico. So you drove down a dirt road approximately a half mile and you would enter an area which the ranch called the Ranch Central, and that housed many buildings. Just to the left, there were two homes, and that was mainly for the ranch staff that lived on the ranch for support. So there were two homes to the left. To the right, there was a small office for the ranch. And then you continued, you're still in the Ranch Central area. And then you went still further into the ranch, probably a hundred feet. And then on the right side, there was a building that had rooms, there was approximately five bedrooms with a western motif on the outside. And that would be for whether it be, the -- any of the guests that would have came on the aircraft to stay, the chef, the pilots all still stayed there. And then it was a motel style building.
And then across the street from that, there was a firehouse with a fire engine, and that also had several garages for all the maintenance for the ranch. And then to the right of that, there was a greenhouse for growing vegetables, et cetera. And then across the street from the greenhouse, there was a stable with a stable area that housed -- it had to have been 10 to 15 horses. That was the ranch central area. And then you continued through Ranch Central and continued up a dirt road approximately, I don't know, it had to have been two or three miles and you got to a Y in the road where if you went to the left -- I'll take you to the left first. Once you got to the Y in the road, you took a left and actually you're going to pass by, during that drive, a runway we had on the property, which, as you saw, the twin-engine Cessna was parked on. So we had a runway and a hangar to house the aircraft. So you pass the runway and you continued up the road to -- it was called the lodge.
It was actually the first home site that was selected to build the main house, and that was a triple-wide trailer that also had a western faux facade built around it. Once you went past the triple-wide lodge, you went about, you know, maybe a thousand yards and there was a log cabin that was built up on the cliff, because both the lodge and the log cabin were on cliffs that overlooked the ravine to the north. And we go back to the Y in the road that brought you past the runway. You continued up that road where you saw the photo with the Z on the entrance. That was the main entrance to the main house. And then the main house was built eventually on that cliff overlooking the ravine.
(Continued on next page)
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: In total approximately how many acres was Mr. Epstein's ranch?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was approximately 10,000 acres. I know there was some state land included in it, but everybody said it was around 10,000 acres.
MS. COMEY: And all of the structures you just described, were they all located on that property owned by Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Have you been inside the main house on the ranch property?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I have.
MS. COMEY: For what purpose?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Several purposes. A lot of the times -- it was on occasion I would meet with Mr. Epstein and discuss future aircraft maintenance or purchases for the aircraft. And then other times would be to pick up and drop off luggage. And that was another residence that I installed a lot of the home theater and audio equipment. He was an audiophile, so he liked very high-quality music; so I installed a home theater, like I had done at the other properties as well.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, can we please pull up Government Exhibits 323 and 706 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize these?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: What are they?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Those are exterior photos of the main house at Zorro Ranch.
MS. COMEY: Are these fair and accurate depictions of the exterior of the main house on Mr. Epstein's Zorro Ranch?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, they are.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers these in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government 323 and 706 are admitted and you may publish.
(Government's Exhibits 323, 706 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. COMEY: While Ms. Drescher shows those to the jury, I'd like to ask you, Mr. Visoski, to please describe the interior of this main residence.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay. As you come into the entrance, I'll take you to the front door, since it's a quite large property. You entered in the front door, and I'll take it starting to the left. If you enter the main door at the front of the house, you made a left, and the house was actually a square house with an open courtyard in the middle that had access to the sun. So it was a -- virtually a square house that circled the courtyard in the middle. So we make a left, and that brought you down a hallway. And the first room you came to was the main living room, which was tremendous in size; it had to have been 200 feet by 50 feet, and it had an extremely large picture window that overlooked the ravine or the house -- where the house was, you know, to take advantage of the view. Inside that room we had a tremendous stereo system that I installed. And then you came out of that living room and you continued down the hallway. At the corner of that hallway there was Mr.
Epstein's library with a desk in it where he spent most of his time, and also housed an impressive audio system. You came out of that room and that led you -- now you're on the -- you're still walking down circling the house. That brought you into what was the dining room for the house. And he didn't use it as a dining room actually; we made that into a movie theater room with a projector that came down. So that was actually the home theater of the house. And you continued through that room. That brought you into a butler's pantry. And then from the butler's pantry, you went into the main kitchen, which also had a dining room table. Once you went through the kitchen, that brought you to another room, which was kind of a morning room, just a small little family room off to the kitchen. As you continue around, there was a staircase that would -- I'll take you downstairs first. You went downstairs. And that brought you to a gym and an indoor swimming pool that also led to the outside patio. Once you came -- I'll bring you back up the stairs. We're on the main level. And then there was another staircase that brought you upstairs that housed the master bedroom, as well as approximately three -- three or four guest bedrooms upstairs.
MS. COMEY: When you first visited this ranch, was the main house you just described completed?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, it was not.
MS. COMEY: About when was construction on this main house completed?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was under construction for a while, that's why he had the triple-wide trailer to stay during the construction. But I would estimate probably late '90s, maybe 2000 is when the house got finished.
MS. COMEY: And so in the mid to late '90s, when you visited the ranch, where did Mr. Epstein stay?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: He would stay up at the lodge or the triple-wide mobile home I described.
MS. COMEY: Could you describe what the interior of that triple-wide lodge looked like.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure. As I mentioned, it was a triple-wide trailer that had a wood western facade built around it to make it a little more attractive than just a mobile home. Once you went in the front door, there was a large wooden deck in the front of the house like you would see in a western movie. And you went in the front door, you walked into the living room which had a fireplace to the left. And then if you continued past the living room and made your left turn to the left side of the home, that was the master bedroom. And then you came back into the living room you continued straight ahead from the entrance door, that brought you into a kitchen that led to a large outside deck that overlooked the ravine. And then you came back into the kitchen, and to the right side of the house there were -- there was a small -- or a family room to the right side and also there was two guest bedrooms there.
MS. COMEY: Did the inside of this structure look like a trailer?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Not the way it was decorated. It was very high-end.
MS. COMEY: What airport did you fly to when Mr. Epstein was staying on this ranch?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Typically, depending upon what aircraft he selected, if we were flying the Gulfstream, which is a smaller, lighter aircraft, we would use Santa Fe, New Mexico Airport. And if we were flying the Boeing, which is a large airliner, we would fly into Albuquerque due to weight restrictions.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to turn now to Mr. Epstein's Paris property. About when do you remember first visiting Mr. Epstein's apartment in Paris?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It had to have been maybe the late '90s, Ms. Comey. I couldn't really narrow it down, but it had to have been in the '90s, I would -- yes.
MS. COMEY: About how many times did you visit that apartment while working for Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Not as much as the other properties. On occasion I would go to pick up luggage and drop off luggage at that place. But I would almost say every trip, but we didn't go to Paris that often, so I'll even go as far as saying most every trip.
MS. COMEY: Other than to pick up luggage, did you go to that apartment for any other reason?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah. I also did some audio work on the home theater that he had in the Paris apartment as well.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, could we please pull up Government Exhibit 705 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize this?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: What is it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is the exterior of the Paris apartment.
MS. COMEY: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of the exterior of the building in which Mr. Epstein's apartment was located?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct, yes, it is.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: GX-705 is admitted and you may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 705 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. Ms. Drescher, would you please show that to the jury.
MS. COMEY: And while that's up, Mr. Visoski, would you please describe what the inside of this apartment looked like.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I believe it was on the second or third floor, we're going back a little ways. But it was -- once you went in the front door, it was a little on the unique side. It was a very long type of apartment. Once you went in the front door, there was an entrance foyer. And if you continued straight through that foyer, it would take you into the kitchen. And then to the left of the kitchen, I think, led down to a hallway with some guest bedrooms. Once you came back to the kitchen, to the right there was a dining room. And then to the right of the dining room there was Mr. Epstein's office where he had a home theater set up in his office as well. And then once you came out back into the foyer, I believe if you went to the right, it took you to either more guest bedrooms, and definitely the master bedroom was down the hallway.
MS. COMEY: When Mr. Epstein stayed at this apartment, what airport did you fly out of?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: We flew into Paris-LeBourget.
MS. COMEY: Turning now to Mr. Epstein's island, about when did you first visit that island?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was approximately mid to late -- late '90s.
MS. COMEY: And what was that island called?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Little St. James.
MS. COMEY: About how often did you visit Little St. James during your employment for Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Every time we went to the St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands, where the island was located.
MS. COMEY: About how often did you fly Mr. Epstein to the U.S. Virgin Islands?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Had been every week, every ten days, if we weren't elsewhere in the world, but it was a regular destination.
MS. COMEY: And why did you go to the island each time Mr. Epstein went to the Virgin Islands?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I also flew the helicopter. So when Mr. Epstein would arrive at St. Thomas main airport, I would go get the helicopter and then pick him up and the passengers and fly them to Little St. James Island, as well as, you know, taking luggage and also picking up luggage at the island. And also a very large home theater was installed at that residence as well.
MS. COMEY: Did you install large home theaters in all of Mr. Epstein's residences?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I did.
MS. COMEY: Other than helicopter, how else could you get to Little St. James?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The other option would be boat.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, can we please pull up Government Exhibit 346 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: What is it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is an aerial view of Little St. James Island.
MS. COMEY: And does that fairly and accurately depict Little St. James Island?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it does.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government 346 is admitted. You may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 346 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. We can take that down. Thank you, Ms. Drescher. I'd like to go now to Government Exhibit 308 for the witness, the Court, and the parties please.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize this?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: What is it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is an aerial view of the main property on Little St. James Island.
MS. COMEY: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of a portion of Mr. Epstein's private island?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it is.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government 308 is admitted. You may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 308 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. COMEY: And while Ms. Drescher puts that up for the jury, Mr. Visoski, could you tell us what we see in this photograph please?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is the main house which appears to be -- and it's located on the north side of the island. But it's a photo of the main house structure on the island.
MS. COMEY: I'd like now, please, to go to Government Exhibit 326 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize this?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: What is it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is also an aerial view of Little St. James Island's main property home site.
MS. COMEY: And is this a fair and accurate depiction of a portion of Jeffrey Epstein's private island?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it is.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: GX-326 is admitted. You may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 326 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. COMEY: And while Ms. Drescher puts this up for the jury, Mr. Visoski, would you please tell us what we see in this photograph.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: As far as describing the home or the property?
MS. COMEY: Yes. Could you tell us what we see in the top right-hand corner first and then tell us what we're seeing on the property.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Oh, gotcha. The top right-hand corner was the boat dock, if you were to arrive by boat. So that was the entrance for guests to arrive by boat. And then if you continued down the highway there, you can't see the helipad, the helipad is still south of that structure. Once you were there, you could take -- you would walk up to the main house up on the top of the hill.
MS. COMEY: Thank you.
MS. COMEY: We can take that down. And now, Ms. Drescher, can you please pull up Government Exhibit 703 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize this?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: What is it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is a photo of Little St. James Island.
MS. COMEY: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of an aerial view of the entirety of Little St. James Island?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it is.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government's 703 is admitted. You may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 703 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. COMEY: While Ms. Drescher puts this up for the jury, Mr. Visoski, I want to ask you, did Mr. Epstein own this entire island that we see here?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: To my knowledge, yes.
MS. COMEY: And could you walk us through in a little more detail a description of the island and the property on it.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay. I guess I'll start at the top of the photo. There was a building there that was a library. It used to have a gold dome on it, but that was actually a library inside that building. And then we come down to the right side of the photo, you could see a small pool on the right side of the photo which was -- which they call the flag -- or the flagpole pool, which was a tremendous-size pool which also had a cabana built. And that was another office that Mr. Epstein spent a lot of his time working on the phone and computers. And then we're coming down through the beach area. Right dead center of the island you'll see a little blue roof, that was the gym. And inside the gym had a tremendous audio system for working out. There was a large gym inside there. And then you come down further from -- further down -- or you're heading down back to the main house structure, to the left you see a wide open grass area, that was the helipad that if we -- if you arrived by helicopter. Coming further down from that, there are several buildings to the left, you see a blue one, a white one. That housed all of the construction equipment, tractors, dump trucks and such, support equipment for the island. And then we're going to come down further from that to the right. We'll come all the way down to the main house structure which also has a large swimming pool. The house was quite unique. It was pretty much a home that was exploded out, that each building was a room of a house; that guest bedrooms were their own bunaglows. So the kitchen was its own building, the living room was its own building, the master bedroom was its own building. So in order to walk from one to another, you actually walked outside. So it was kind of what I considered like an exploded house.
MS. COMEY: When Mr. Epstein was staying on this island, what airport did you fly into and out of?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: We flew into the main airport in St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands. I believe it's called Charlotte Amalie.
MS. COMEY: We can take that down. Thank you, Ms. Drescher.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, what, if any, of Ms. Maxwell's residences did you visit during your employment?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I think I've been to all of her residence.
MS. COMEY: Could you walk us through each of them chronologically, starting with the first, please.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes. The first time I met Ms. Maxwell, she was in a smaller apartment. We're going back 30 years, so I don't really remember the streets. But then the second apartment I remember a little more, a little more -- obviously better, which I believe was on 84th Street, which was a nice three-bedroom apartment. And she was there for several years. I did set up a home theater in that apartment as well. And then eventually she purchased a brownstone townhouse, I believe, which was on 65th Street.
MS. COMEY: About when do you remember Ms. Maxwell moving from the smaller apartment to the apartment around 84th Street?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Had to have been the mid '90s. I don't really have a good, accurate estimation on that.
MS. COMEY: And about when do you remember her moving into the brownstone townhouse you mentioned?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I'd only be guessing if I said the 2000s, but I don't have an exact era. It had to have been in the 2000s, I believe.
MS. COMEY: In what borough were all three of those residences?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: They were in Manhattan.
MS. COMEY: Why did you go to those residences?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was -- it was still luggage; we would actually go there to pick up luggage for the flights. I would actually go there sometimes to get an expense report signed. And then also at the brownstone I did -- she had the sixth floor up there that had a home theater that I installed with a flat screen TV, so I would occasionally go there and support, you know, help tune and adjust that.
MS. COMEY: Would you please describe the interior of Ms. Maxwell's brownstone townhouse.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I believe it was a five or six-story building or home. You entered the front door, it brought you into a courtyard or I should say an entrance foyer. And then once you started -- you walk up the first stairs to the first -- to the first level you got to, that was kind of the living room and also had the kitchen. So in the front of the house of the brownstone was the living room, then there was a dining room, and then further back of that was the kitchen. And then you went to the next level, the second and third floors, I believe were the guest bedrooms and the master bedroom. And then once you got to the top, which, if memory serves me correctly, might have been the fifth floor where we installed a home theater for her.
MS. COMEY: Switching gears. Between 1991 and 2004, what planes did you fly for Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: From '91 to 2004?
MS. COMEY: Yes.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The first aircraft was a Hawker Siddeley, what's called an HS125. Mr. Epstein purchased that. He had that aircraft from '91 till 1994. And then in 1994, he sold that aircraft and he purchased a Gulfstream, which is called the G2B. And he had the Gulfstream from 1994 up until 2000, when he added another aircraft, is when he bought the Boeing 727. And he continued to keep both of those aircraft. So we flew both aircraft, the Boeing and the Gulfstream, up until 2004, to the date you mentioned.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up Government Exhibits 311 and 312 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize these?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: What are they?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is the first aircraft Mr. Epstein purchased, which is the Hawker Siddeley 125.
MS. COMEY: Are these both fair and accurate depictions of that aircraft?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, they are.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers both of these exhibits in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Without objection, Government 311, 312 are admitted, and you may accomplish.
(Government's Exhibits 311, 312 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. You can take those down. Thank you, Ms. Drescher.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, about how many helicopters do you remember Mr. Epstein owning between 1994 and 2004?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: During that time frame, up until 2004, it was probably the first helicopter he purchased, one helicopter.
MS. COMEY: And when did Mr. Epstein purchase that helicopter?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Give or take a year, probably the year 2000, '99 to 2000.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up Government Exhibits 344 and 345 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize these?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: What are they?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is a photo of Mr. Epstein's first helicopter he purchased.
MS. COMEY: Do both of these exhibits fairly and accurately depict that helicopter?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, they do.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers these in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: 344 and 345 government exhibits are admitted. You may publish.
(Government's Exhibits 344, 345 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. COMEY: And while Ms. Drescher puts those up, I'll ask you, Mr. Visoski, what did Mr. Epstein use these -- this helicopter for?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was mainly to get from St. Thomas to Little St. James, rather than taking the boat ride.
MS. COMEY: Who do you remember flying this helicopter?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Myself, Ms. Maxwell flew the helicopter with me, and I also had some contract pilots that were based in St. Thomas that assisted flying the helicopter as well.
MS. COMEY: About how many times do you remember Ms. Maxwell flying this helicopter?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Many times. It would be hard to put a number on it. Any time -- several -- many times. It's hard to put a number on it.
MS. COMEY: We can take those down. Thank you.
MS. COMEY: Between approximately 1994 and 2000, what plane did you fly most frequently for Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: From 1994 to 2000, that would be -- it would have been -- all been the Gulfstream G2B.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up Government Exhibits 336 and 315 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize these?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: What are they?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The photo on the left is a photo of the Gulfstream G2B that has the white stripe on it, the black aircraft. The white aircraft in the photo is -- I don't -- nothing to do with Mr. Epstein. And then the photo on the right is another photo of the Gulfstream G2B with Mr. Epstein standing in front of it.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers these in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: 336 and 315 are admitted and you may publish.
(Government's Exhibits 315, 336 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: While Ms. Drescher puts these up for the jury, would you please describe what the interior of the G2B looked like, please.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: As you walk up the entrance stairs to the aircraft, obviously if you make a left turn, that would bring you into the cockpit. You made a right turn, brought you into the passenger compartment. And as soon as you got into the passenger compartment, there were four large captain's chairs. They were baseball glove leather in color. This aircraft had a burgundy carpet. Once you get past the four chairs, you're continuing walking to the rear of the aircraft. There was a conference table to the right that had two chairs as well. And then further aft, as you continue walking to the back of the aircraft, there was a couch or a divan inside there. And then once you went past the couch divan, there was a galley or what you would call kitchen inside the aircraft. And as you went further past that was the bathroom for the aircraft. And then further back than that is the luggage compartment.
MS. COMEY: What, if any, barrier was there on this aircraft between the pilots and the passengers?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Between the pilots and the passengers there was a door that could be shut.
MS. COMEY: And when you flew this plane for Mr. Epstein, was that door open or shut during flight?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: We always had the door closed. It's much quieter with the door closed as well.
MS. COMEY: So were you able to observe what the passengers were doing when you flew this plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I could not.
MS. COMEY: Between approximately 2001 and 2004, which of Mr. Epstein's planes did you fly most frequently?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Between 2001 and 2004, it was a combination of both the Boeing 727 and the G2B, depending upon his choice of what aircraft he wanted to fly. But mostly during that time frame we were flying the Boeing 727.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up Government Exhibits 302 and 301 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize these?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: What are they?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Those are two photos of the Boeing 727 that Mr. Epstein owned.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers these in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: 302 and 301, government exhibits, are admitted. You may publish.
(Government's Exhibits 301, 302 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, after you've shown both of these, I'd ask just to put up Government Exhibit 301 for the jury, please.
MS. COMEY: While she's doing that, Mr. Visoski, would you please describe what the inside of this plane looked like.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure. The best way to describe it, it was kind of like a recreational vehicle inside; it wasn't like a typical airliner would look. You went in the front entrance door which is located at the forward part of the aircraft. You walked upstairs. And if you continued straight ahead, it went into the first bathroom, which we considered the crew bathroom; so there was a lavatory up in front. And then if you made a left turn, brought you into the cockpit. Now we're still at the entrance and now we're going to walk to the back of the airplane. You went through -- as soon as you got to the first compartment, there was like a large living room that had one, two, three -- it had three couches or divans. And then it had several captain chairs inside there. Once you went from that first compartment, you're continuing walking to the back of the aircraft, in the middle there was a galley or kitchen like you would find in a home. It was a full decked-out kitchen. And then once you went further past the kitchen, there was what we call the round room. There was a couch or a divan in the middle of the aircraft that was actually round or circular. And once you went past that, there was what we called the red room, which had Mr. Epstein's office that also had a red couch or divan and his office desk. And then once you continue further walking to the back of the aircraft, there was the master bedroom that had a queen-size bed and two captain's chairs inside there. And then you're still walking to the back of the aircraft, there was the master -- the master lavatory or the bathroom in the rear of the aircraft.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up Government Exhibit 303 for the witness, the Court, and the parties.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, do you recognize this?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: What is it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is actually the round room I described with the round couch or divan inside it. And then further in the photo you could see the red couch which was his office. And further after that led into the bedroom.
MS. COMEY: Is this a fair and accurate depiction of a portion of the interior of Jeffrey Epstein's Boeing 727?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it is.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Government 303 is admitted. You may publish.
(Government's Exhibit 303 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: While Ms. Drescher puts that up, will you please describe once again what we see in this photograph, Mr. Visoski.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's the middle of the aircraft or where actually the emergency exits are located. When you say describe it --
MS. COMEY: What we're seeing in the foreground and the background, the jurors weren't able to see the photograph when you were describing it.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Oh, I'm sorry. Gotcha. I thought I just explained it. I'm going to repeat myself. So this is the round couch, round divan that was in the middle of the aircraft. And then as you see in the photo, the red couch or divan, which was Mr. Epstein's office and which -- to the right side of that, which is not in the photo, there was a large desk. And then in the foreground, way in the back are the two captain's chairs that are actually across from the master bed in the back of the aircraft.
MS. COMEY: We can take that down. Thank you, Ms. Drescher.
MS. COMEY: What, if any, barrier was there between the pilots and the passengers on the Boeing 727?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: On the Boeing, each compartment had its own doors, so you can seclude each compartment or even the cockpit from the passengers.
MS. COMEY: During flight in the Boeing 727, was the cockpit door opened or closed?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was always closed.
MS. COMEY: So were you able to observe the passengers on the flights you piloted on that plane?
MS. COMEY: What records did you keep as a pilot for Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: We kept two documents, one was a flight log and the other was a passenger manifest.
MS. COMEY: And when you say "we," who do you mean?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I meant myself and the other pilot.
MS. COMEY: And who was that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: David Rogers.
MS. COMEY: You mentioned a flight log and a passenger manifest. Did you complete one for each flight you piloted for Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I did.
MS. COMEY: What is contained in a flight log?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: A flight log is a document that is pretty much married to the aircraft; it's the history of how many hours the aircraft has on it, how many times the aircraft has landed, each engine has its own total time that's recorded, as well as how many times it was cycled, meaning turned on or off.
MS. COMEY: Will that flight log have any information about the passengers onboard for a particular flight?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, it will not.
MS. COMEY: How about the passenger manifest, what information goes into a passenger manifest?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: A passenger manifest is a document that we recorded what time we actually took off and landed. It had the date of the flight, it had the exact time of departure and arrival, and it also had a column for the name of the passengers that were on the aircraft.
MS. COMEY: Who completed the passenger manifest for each flight that was piloted for Mr. Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Whoever was captain on the aircraft that day would complete that form.
MS. COMEY: What does it mean to be captain?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: To be captain would be to fly in the left seat and be in total control of the aircraft.
MS. COMEY: How long after each flight did the captain complete the passenger manifest?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was done immediately after the aircraft, within an hour.
MS. COMEY: Between approximately 1994 and 2004, what did you do with the passenger manifests that you personally completed?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: They would acquire them. After about 30 days, I would take them to the main office in New York and then drop them off.
MS. COMEY: Did you keep a copy for yourself?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I did not.
MS. COMEY: If you did not know the name of a particular passenger on a flight, how will you indicate the presence of that passenger in a passenger manifest?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I tried to be as accurate as I could. If I didn't know a passenger name, I wanted to put whether they were male or female, the passenger -- as a pilot's standpoint, it's more important how many people and how much they weigh compared to a person's name. We tried to be as accurate as we could. So if I didn't know a name, I put whether they were male or female.
MS. COMEY: And remind us why you wouldn't necessarily know the name of everyone on your plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It wasn't my first priority. Most of the time Mr. Epstein would, you know, indicate or introduce us to the passengers, but it just wasn't -- it wasn't the first thing, you know, on anybody's mind. Occasionally he would introduce and sometimes he wouldn't. We would try to gather their name if we asked them, if we had the time to ask them. But we tried to do the best we could is to get everybody's name.
MS. COMEY: During your employment with Mr. Epstein, did you ever fly to the airport in Traverse City, Michigan?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I did.
MS. COMEY: About what years do you remember making those trips to Michigan?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Definitely in the '90s is the best I could come up with. It was in the '90s.
MS. COMEY: During what season do you remember taking those trips to Michigan?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't remember it being cold, because I know it gets pretty cold up there. It had to have been summer or, you know, maybe close to fall when cherry season was happening because I think that's the cherry capital.
MS. COMEY: When traveling to Traverse City, Michigan, where, if anywhere, do you remember picking up Mr. Epstein's luggage?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I can only recall one time that Mr. Epstein had called or somebody notified me to pick up the luggage in the lobby of the Interlochen School of Music.
MS. COMEY: About when was that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't have an accurate date. I could only say the '90s.
MS. COMEY: And what is Interlochen?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I believe it's a school for gifted children that are talented musicians, singers, etc., world-renowned type of school.
MS. COMEY: How many, if any, female passengers who flew on Mr. Epstein's plane do you remember who were singers?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I can recall one.
MS. COMEY: At this time, your Honor, I'd like to read a stipulation into the record, if I may.
JUDGE NATHAN: What is the identification number?
MS. COMEY: It's Government Exhibit 1004.
JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Everdell, without objection? Go ahead.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. You may read Government Exhibit 1004, the stipulation.
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. It is hereby stipulated and agreed that Government Exhibit 11 is a true and correct certified copy of a birth certificate reported to the New York Department of State. Government Exhibit 11 accurately reflects the date of birth of the person named on the certificate. Government Exhibit 12 is a true and correct copy of a birth certificate reported to the Rhode Island Department of Health. Government Exhibit 12 accurately reflects the date of birth of the person named on the certificate. Government Exhibit 13 is a true and correct certified copy of a birth certificate reported to the Missouri Department of Health and Senior Services. Government Exhibit 13 accurately reflects the date of birth of the person named on the certificate. Government Exhibit 14 is a true and correct certified copy of a birth certificate reported to Sacramento County, California. Government Exhibit 14 accurately reflects the date of birth of the person named on the certificate. Government Exhibit 15 is a true and correct certified copy of a birth certificate reported to the Massachusetts Department of Public Health. Government Exhibit 15 accurately reflects the date of birth of the person named on the certificate. Government Exhibit 16 is a true and correct copy of a birth certificate reported to the general registrar -- register office of England and Wales. Government Exhibit 16 accurately reflects the date of birth of the person named on the certificate. It is further stipulated and agreed that this stipulation, marked as Government Exhibit 1004, and Government Exhibits 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16 may be received in evidence at trial. At this time, your Honor, the government offers all of the exhibits I just named.
JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Everdell.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Without objection and on stipulation, Government Exhibit 1004 is admitted, as are Government Exhibit 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16. (Government's Exhibits 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 1004 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would note that the parties have agreed that Government Exhibits 11 through 16 would be submitted under seal. And I would ask for authorization to have the jurors pick up their binders of sealed exhibits so that we may look at one of those in a moment.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. And the sealing is consistent with my ruling that some of the witnesses are able to testify under pseudonyms.
MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. And the specific direction to the jury is to pick up the binder now or not yet?
MS. COMEY: Pick up the binder now, but don't turn anywhere in the binder yet.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Mr. Everdell, without objection?
MR. EVERDELL: That's fine, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, there's a binder under your seat. Please just pick it up, but don't open it until specifically directed. Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, also they shouldn't pick up the folder.
JUDGE NATHAN: They should not. There's a folder there as well, and you should not pick up the folder yet, just the binder. Surprises under your seats.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would also ask the witness to please pick up the binder in front of him.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Please do, Mr. Visoski.
MS. COMEY: At this time I'd like to ask for the jury and the witness to just turn silently to Government Exhibit 12 and take a look at that.
JUDGE NATHAN: We're not going to put these on the screens.
MS. COMEY: That's correct, your Honor. All paper copies.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MS. COMEY: And your Honor, we have a hard copy for the Court, if that would be useful.
JUDGE NATHAN: That would help. Thank you.
MS. COMEY: May Ms. Drescher approach?
JUDGE NATHAN: Please. And you've asked, Ms. Comey, to turn to again?
MS. COMEY: Government Exhibit 12, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. So please just turn to Government Exhibit 12. Everybody there? Not yet.
MS. COMEY: I see a hand from a juror.
JUDGE NATHAN: You need glasses. We're going to get them. Hang on a second. Ms. Williams will ask you where she can find them for you. Just a moment. Members of the jury, please don't turn to other exhibits until expressly instructed, but you may look at Government Exhibit 12 in the binder.
(Pause)
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you, Ms. Williams. GX-12.
MS. COMEY: Yes. Thank you, your Honor.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Now, Mr. Visoski, without saying the name out loud, would you please look at the first and last name on this exhibit.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is the first and last name on that document the name of the female singer you remember being a passenger on Mr. Epstein's plane?
MR. EVERDELL: Objection. Leading.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow it. Go ahead.
MS. COMEY: You can answer or I'm happy to ask the question again if you need me to.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: To be clear, is that the first and last name of the female singer you remember being a passenger on Mr. Epstein's plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it is.
MS. COMEY: We can set that aside. Thank you. And your Honor, we don't need those binders for the jurors anymore for this witness.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Members of the jury, you can close the binder and put it back under your chair, please, until given further instruction. Thank you so much.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Visoski, I'm going to refer to that person whose name we just looked at as Jane, and I would ask you to do the same, please.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay.
MS. COMEY: Do you remember meeting Jane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Approximately mid to late '90s.
MS. COMEY: Do you remember the exact year as you sit here today?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I do not.
MS. COMEY: Did anyone ever tell you how old Jane was?
MS. COMEY: Do you know how old Jane was when you met her?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I didn't.
MS. COMEY: How did you meet Jane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Mr. Epstein brought her to the cockpit and introduced her to me.
MS. COMEY: What, if anything, stands out in your mind about Jane's demeanor when you met her that day?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Just a mature woman with some piercing powder blue eyes.
MS. COMEY: About how many times do you recall seeing Jane on Mr. Epstein's plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: At least one, the time that Mr. Epstein introduced.
MS. COMEY: Do you remember where you were going that day?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do not.
MS. COMEY: Do you remember where you were coming from?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Do you remember where you were coming from that day?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, we were departing West Palm Beach Airport.
MS. COMEY: What, if any, passenger with the first name Virginia do you remember flying on Mr. Epstein's plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do remember at least one person named Virginia.
MS. COMEY: And what was that person's full name?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was Virginia Roberts.
MS. COMEY: About when did you meet Virginia Roberts?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Had to have been mid to late '90s.
MS. COMEY: Do you remember the exact year?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do not.
MS. COMEY: What did Virginia look like?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: A shorter woman with dirty blond hair.
MS. COMEY: Did anyone ever tell you how old Virginia was when you met her?
MS. COMEY: Do you know how old she was when you met her?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I did not.
MS. COMEY: About how many times do you remember seeing Virginia Roberts as a passenger on Mr. Epstein's private planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She was on the airplane a couple times. I couldn't guess the quantity, but definitely more than once.
MS. COMEY: May I have a moment, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred)
MS. COMEY: Nothing further, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Mr. Everdell, you may proceed with the cross-examination.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor. At this point, with the Court's permission, I would put a binder up in the witness box.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, to be clear, I have not seen what's inside this binder.
MR. EVERDELL: This is in case we need to refer the witness to something.
JUDGE NATHAN: So you may bring it forward. Before the witness is directed to look at any document, you'll show it to the government.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes. If we're going to refer to anything, we will refer what it is to the government so they can see it before we have the witness open the binder.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: May I approach, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MR. EVERDELL: May I remove my mask, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may, Mr. Everdell.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Good morning Mr. Visoski.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Good morning, Mr. Everdell.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm going to ask you a few questions about what you just testified to on direct.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you testified that you started working as a pilot for Jeffrey Epstein in about 1991; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you were hired, along with your friend David Rogers; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, when you started in 1991, Dave Rogers was the chief pilot and you were the co-captain?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But that changed, I think, in about 2000; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct, approximately.
MR. EVERDELL: At that point you became the chief pilot and Dave Rogers became the co-captain?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you continued to work for Epstein as his chief pilot until about 2019?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So you were a pilot for Jeffrey Epstein for almost 30 years from 1991 to 2019; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And in that time, I think you testified that you flew several different planes for him; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: If we could call up what is already in evidence as Government's Exhibit 311.
JUDGE NATHAN: 311 you said?
MR. EVERDELL: 311, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. You may.
MR. EVERDELL: And we can display that for the jurors.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you see that, Mr. Visoski?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MR. EVERDELL: We saw that before. That's the Hawker Siddeley jet, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that was used from about '91 -- 1991 to 1994; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. We can take that down.
MR. EVERDELL: So you no longer flew the Hawker after about '94?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, the aircraft was sold after '94.
MR. EVERDELL: And there was another aircraft you mentioned, the Gulfstream, the G2B, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: If we can pull up what's already in evidence as Government's Exhibit 315.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MR. EVERDELL: Display that for the jurors as well.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you see that, Mr. Visoski?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: We saw that before, right, that is the Gulfstream jet with Mr. Epstein in front of it; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And he got that, your recollection is, sometime around 1994?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. We can take that down.
MR. EVERDELL: And you've also mentioned that he eventually got the Boeing 727?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct, in 2000.
MR. EVERDELL: That was roughly around 2000?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: If we can display what's already in evidence as Government's Exhibit 301.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MR. EVERDELL: And show that to the jurors as well.
MR. EVERDELL: That was -- that is the Boeing 727; correct?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. You can take that down.
MR. EVERDELL: You occasionally flew other planes for him as well?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I think we saw in one of the photos, I won't call it up, but there was a small Cessna?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But from about 1994, after Mr. Epstein sold the Hawker, till about 2001 or 2000, I think is your recollection, when he bought the Boeing, you flew primarily the Gulfstream?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And from 2000 onwards or till 2004 or five, you were flying both the Gulfstream and the Boeing?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, in the period from 1991, when you were first hired, to 2005, you flew numerous flights for Epstein?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Would it be accurate to say that you flew over 1,000 flights during that time period?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I'd have to look at my records, but it was probably close to that, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Give or take?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Give or take, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That's a lot of flights.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: We consider it more in hours than flights, but --
MR. EVERDELL: Understood. And Epstein would frequently have other passengers on these flights, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And many of these passengers were female; correct?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And sometimes you saw the passengers, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: There were times when you, I think, stood at the entrance of the plane near the cockpit when the passengers arrived and you might have greeted them?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sometimes.
MR. EVERDELL: There were times when Epstein or Ghislaine introduced you to passengers?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: There were times when the plane and the passengers had to clear customs, right, and the pilots and the passengers would have to get out of the plane and clear customs to do that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, that's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you'd see the passengers then too?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And there were times when the passengers came up to the cockpit before takeoff and you might have met some of them then?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Occasionally that would happen, sure.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Now, you testified that the cockpit doors for the Gulfstream and the Boeing were always closed during the flights while you were in the air; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But you left the door open to the cockpit as you were getting the plane ready for takeoff before you took off, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: As you were in the cockpit, if you were looking back through the cockpit door, you could see the passengers in the entranceway if you wanted to, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Most of them, yes. It wasn't a clear view to every seat in the aircraft, but, yeah, I could see the passengers.
MR. EVERDELL: There were several ways that you could have observed and did observe the passengers that came onto his planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, if I looked over my shoulder; correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Or those other ways we discussed?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: At the entrance, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, of the female passengers on these planes that you observed, you occasionally saw young girls who were traveling with their family members, isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: There was some time when adults would bring their children onboard, sure.
MR. EVERDELL: But you never saw a female you thought was under the age of 18 who was not with her family, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct. No.
MR. EVERDELL: And apart from those times when you saw young girls traveling with their family members, you never saw any female on the plane who looked to you to be under the age of 20, isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Well, that's correct, yeah, I didn't notice anybody of a younger nature without an adult or, you know, a parent.
MR. EVERDELL: So in the roughly thousand or so, give or take, flights that you flew for Epstein from 1994 -- or 1991, I should say, to 2005, you never once saw a female on any of the planes who looked under the age of 20, apart from the ones who were traveling with their family members?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct. I didn't know anybody's, you know, exact age or age at all really.
MR. EVERDELL: But none of them appeared to you to be under 20?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Was that -- I didn't hear.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, that's correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, that includes the woman that we have been referring to as Jane; correct?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct. I didn't know her age.
MR. EVERDELL: And she did not appear to you to be under the age of 20?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I didn't know her exact -- I didn't know her age at all. But to my -- she looked like a woman.
MR. EVERDELL: She looked like a mature woman, I believe was your testimony before; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And it also includes the woman you referred to as Virginia?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She also did not look below the age of 20 to you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I didn't know her age, but she didn't -- she didn't look young. I mean, wherever you decipher is the definition of "young," but she -- she was a woman in my category.
(Continued on next page)
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: She was a woman?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, in all these flights that you flew, the several hundred to a thousand flights that you piloted for Mr. Epstein in this time period, you also never saw any kind of sexual activity occur on the planes; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I never saw any sexual activity, no.
MR. EVERDELL: And you certainly never saw anyone engaging in sex acts with underage girls on the plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Absolutely not.
MR. EVERDELL: In fact, you never saw anyone engaging in sex acts with any of the women on the flights period; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you testified, I think we already established this, that when you were flying, in flight, the cockpit doors were closed?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So if the cockpit doors were closed, you couldn't necessarily see what was going on in the cabin during the flights; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Not at all, no.
MR. EVERDELL: But you were never instructed by Epstein or anyone else that you were not allowed to leave the cockpits during the flights; is that correct?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct. Mr. Epstein invited us, that if we had to go to the bathroom, that we were welcome to walk to the back of the aircraft.
MR. EVERDELL: So he invited you to come anywhere you wanted to, even including in the back of the aircraft to use the restroom if you wanted to?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Exactly. Yes, because there are times that if you have to use the restroom, like now.
MR. EVERDELL: We can take a break.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I was hoping for a break in between. Am I the only one?
JUDGE NATHAN: Jury, I think it's time for our midmorning break. Why don't you finish the question and then we'll take a break.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: I'll just ask the question. He invited you to use the restroom at the back of the plane whenever you needed to?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, he offered, if we needed to use the restroom, to feel free to come into the back of the aircraft to use the restroom.
MR. EVERDELL: One last question before we break. To do that, you had to walk through the cabin to the back of the plane and go through the rooms of the plane to get to the restroom; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: If we were in the Gulf Stream, yes. In the Boeing, we had our own lavatory up front. But in the Gulf Stream, like, you're talking about from '94 to 2000, we would walk down the middle of the aircraft because the bathroom was at the absolute rear, correct.
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, we'll take our midmorning break. See you in about 10 minutes. Thank you.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury not present) Everyone may be seated, the witness may step down for the break.
(Witness not present) Are there matters to take up before the break?
MS. COMEY: No, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: No, your Honor.
MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, may I just ask, it's very cold in here, can the temperature be risen just a little?
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm sweating.
MS. STERNHEIM: Sorry.
JUDGE NATHAN: We'll get it raised. This is my light weather robe. We'll get it raised.
MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: I apologize. We'll see you in about 10.
(Recess)
JUDGE NATHAN: Matters to take up, counsel?
MS. COMEY: No, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: No, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: We can bring the witness back into the box. Mr. Everdell, do you have a time estimate? I won't hold you to it.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you have an estimate for how long I've been going so far? I could probably --
JUDGE NATHAN: 20 minutes.
MR. EVERDELL: I'd say maybe another hour or so.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Sternheim, I have asked for them to raise the temperature.
MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you, Judge. Feels better already.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Please be seated. I hope you had a pleasant and timely break, members of the jury. Thank you for your continued attention and diligence. Mr. Everdell, you may continue with your cross examination of Mr. Visoski. And Mr. Visoski, I remind you that you are under oath. You may proceed.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Welcome back, Mr. Visoski.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: Trust you're feeling more comfortable?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Oh, much better.
MR. EVERDELL: Very good. Do you recall when we left off, we were talking about going to the restroom on the airplanes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And I think you said that you were allowed, you were permitted and even invited to walk through the Gulf Stream to the back of the plane to use the restroom there if you needed to?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So Mr. Epstein never told you, for example, you have to stay in the cockpit during the flight?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Absolutely not.
MR. EVERDELL: Now if he were engaging in sex acts with underage girls in the plane and he didn't want you to see that, he probably would have said something to you about that, wouldn't he?
MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. You may answer.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Can you repeat the question.
MR. EVERDELL: Sure. If Mr. Epstein were engaging in sex acts with underage girls on his planes and he didn't want you to see it, he probably would have told you that you couldn't leave the cockpit during the flight; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And he never told you that you could never mingle with the passengers; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, not at all.
MR. EVERDELL: In fact, you recounted how you did interact with the passengers on occasion; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Absolutely on occasion, sure.
MR. EVERDELL: In fact, you were never given any rules about how you could or could not interact with the passengers; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I was never told what to do with the passengers or what not to do.
MR. EVERDELL: And you were never given any rules about how you could interact with the other members of his staff or his assistants; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct, never.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you did say that every once in a while you would leave the cockpit to use the restroom?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you did that both on the Gulf Stream and on the Boeing; is that correct?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: The Gulf Stream bathroom, you said, was in the back of the plane; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And the Boeing bathroom was near the cockpit but outside the cockpit; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Exactly, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So if you went to the bathroom in the Boeing, you could still see the cabin where the passengers were, at least the first cabin?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: If the door was open. Each section of the aircraft had a door and typically the doors were open.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, in any of those trips to the restroom, you never saw any sexual activity on the plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I never did.
MR. EVERDELL: And you had also, I think, occasion go to get coffee in the galley kitchen; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: In the Boeing, yes. I would go to the middle of the aircraft to get a cup of coffee on occasion, sure.
MR. EVERDELL: And as you said in the Boeing, the galley kitchens is in the middle of the aircraft; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So you would have to walk through at least that first cabin of passengers?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And on those trips you took to get coffee in the galley kitchen, you never saw any sexual activity going on then, did you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, never.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, after the flight landed, I believe it was part of the pilot's job to help clean up the cabin and straighten up a bit; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it is.
MR. EVERDELL: And when you did that, you never saw anything like clothes strewn about the cabin; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, never.
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw any sex toys left in the cabin?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Never.
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw anything like used condoms?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Absolutely not.
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw anything that gave you the impression that any kind of sexual activity was taking place on the plane with anyone; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct, I never, no.
MR. EVERDELL: So sitting here today, based on what you observed, you have no reason to believe that Epstein or anyone else was engaging in sexual activity with underage girls on the flights you piloted; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, I want to ask you some questions about how the flights were scheduled and set up. Okay?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, before a flight was scheduled, you and Dave Rogers needed to be alerted ahead of time that Epstein needed to fly somewhere; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I think you said typically you get about a day's notice; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And several different people would call you to schedule these flights; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And in the 1990s, focusing on that time period, you would occasionally get calls from Epstein himself to schedule flights?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: He would call on occasion, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And every once in a while, you'd get a call from Ghislaine, as well?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: But during that time period, it was usually Epstein's secretary or one of his other assistants in New York who would call you to schedule the flights; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It would be a variety. Whoever got the message would pass it along to us, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Right. And I think you said that in the 1990s, you didn't have cellphones; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct. It was a beeper, pager.
MR. EVERDELL: Beeper. This was over 20 years ago at this point; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Coming in on 30, but yes, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Coming in on 30. That's before everybody owned a cellphone; correct?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But you did have the beepers?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you and Dave Rogers would get a message on your beeper; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you would call back Epstein's office, usually; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Because that's usually where the call came from, isn't it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct. That was the number that would appear for departure.
MR. EVERDELL: And you would talk to Epstein's secretary or assistant or whoever was going to schedule that flight?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, occasionally, you said you talked to Ghislaine about this, about scheduling?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Occasionally Ghislaine would reach out. Several people would reach out. Whoever Jeffrey told, hey, get the plane ready, that's the person that contacted me.
MR. EVERDELL: It was usually the case, if you spoke to Ghislaine about a flight, she was going to be traveling on that flight?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Most of the time, sure.
MR. EVERDELL: And in the 2000s now, fast forwarding to a later time period, you spoke to different people about scheduling flights; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, whoever would get the message, correct. It would be different people.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, one person you spoke to in the 2000s was Lesley Groff; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And Lesley Groff was Epstein's secretary?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And she worked in Epstein's New York office?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall what number you used to call her on?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, the main office number.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you remember what that number was?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MR. EVERDELL: What was it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: 212-750-9895.
MR. EVERDELL: But the person I think you spoke most often to about scheduling flights in the 2000s was not Lesley Groff, it was Sarah Kellen; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She would also schedule flights, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You met Sarah Kellen, you said?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I have.
MR. EVERDELL: If we can pull up for the members of the jury and everyone else Government Exhibit 327, which is already admitted.
MR. EVERDELL: That's Sarah Kellen, isn't it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is Sarah Kellen, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you say you think you met her sometime in the early 2000s; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It could have been late '90s. Again, we're 20, 21 years ago, but yeah, it was late '90. It could have been 2000. I remember Ms. Kellen obviously flying on the Boeing, which would have been 2000 and later. Yeah, it was late '90s. It's the best I could do as far as recollection.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, isn't it true that she first flew on one of Epstein's planes in September of 2001?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I believe she -- well, she probably did because she was around in '01 when the Boeing was there. I haven't gotten any -- I don't have any documentation or -- but yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Let me see if there is something that might refresh your recollection. I would like to pull up just for the Court, the deputy, and for the witness 3527-07 at page 86. I'll repeat for clarity that's 3527-007 at page 86.
JUDGE NATHAN: Let me know when you're ready, Ms. Comey.
MS. COMEY: I'm there. Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, if I could direct your attention to the sixth entry down on that list you're looking at. If you could just take a look at that. Just see if that refreshes your recollection about the first time Sarah Kellen flew.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Is that the September 3rd date you're looking?
MR. EVERDELL: I'm asking, does that refresh your recollection?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Well, it's a document of a regularly scheduled route. Obviously it's not my logbook. It was normal -- there was a typical routing that we would fly. It's the best I could say, but it would appear to be the -- it doesn't refresh of any, you know, certainty, but sure, that would be a date that we would do a trip like that.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So I'll just rephrase. Sarah Kellen, to the best of your recollection, was flying on Epstein's planes in the early 2000s?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes. Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You can take that down.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, that is around the time when Epstein -- excuse me. When Sarah Kellen became Epstein's personal assistant; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I didn't know what her exact job detail was. I mean, I considered her position or her title, you know, throughout the same as far as to being Mr. Jeffrey's assistant or Ms. Maxwell's assistant, just that she was there as an employee.
MR. EVERDELL: Your recollection is that she was an employee who worked with Epstein; is that fair to say?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah. Exactly, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But you're a little unclear exactly what her role was?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But she certainly did some work for Epstein in the time she worked in his office?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Exactly, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall, she was married to a racecar driver; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Later in life, I believe she got married to a racecar driver.
MR. EVERDELL: So you said that Sarah Kellen would call you to arrange the flight departures?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sometimes, sure, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And by that point in the 2000s or the early 2000s, you had cellphones; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So Sarah Kellen, when she did call you, would call your cellphone to arrange a flight; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: In fact, you spoke to Sarah Kellen so often at that point that you had her number on speed dial in your phone; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Most likely, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall what Sarah Kellen's phone number was?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: Let me show you something, see if it refreshes your recollection. I want to call up 3527-001, we'll go to the third page. That is just for the Court, the deputy, and the witness, please.
MR. EVERDELL: May I proceed, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, do you have that document in front of you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you see just sort of maybe a third of the way down from the top of the page, there is an entry there. Does that refresh your recollection on what Sarah Kellen's phone number was?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Her number wasn't embranded in my mind as a memory, but the number does come back to me as being Sarah Kellen's cellphone number.
MR. EVERDELL: So the number, was it 917-855-3363?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you. You can take that down.
MR. EVERDELL: So in the 2000s, that's the number you would speak to Sarah Kellen on about arranging flights?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, regardless of who you spoke to about scheduling flights, when you were told that Epstein needed to fly somewhere, you would need to be given certain information about the flight; correct?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: Like, for example, you would need to be given the date of when Epstein wanted to fly?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You would need to be given roughly the time of departure?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you would need to be given the destination where you're going to fly; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes. That would be helpful, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You might want to follow a flight plan or something like that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But you wouldn't necessarily be told who was going to be going on the flight; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Not at all.
MR. EVERDELL: If you had someone who was particularly important that was going to be on the flight, you might be told ahead of time?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Exactly.
MR. EVERDELL: So, for example, I believe former president Bill Clinton flew on Epstein's planes a few times in the 2000s; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, he did.
MR. EVERDELL: So if he were going to be on the flight, you might be told that information in advance?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Because you might want to make sure the plane looked nice?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Exactly.
MR. EVERDELL: You might want to invite some special caterer?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: But otherwise, you might not know who would be traveling on the flight at all; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And even when the passengers arrived at the airport, even then, you wouldn't necessarily meet all the passengers; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, not at all.
MR. EVERDELL: A lot of the time you didn't meet them?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Sometimes you were just given their names?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you wouldn't always be given all of their names; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Sometimes you would just be given a first name?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: But even if you weren't told all the names or you didn't have all the names, you did try to keep track of how many people were on the plane; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Because as you mentioned before in testimony, pilots need to fill out a passenger manifest for each flight; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: They don't have to on general aviation. It was more for weight and balance. It was my understanding we kept passenger information more for tax reasons on who flew on the aircraft in the early days. Might not be the case at this point, but we still tried to keep as accurate records, if we could, even if it wasn't necessary.
MR. EVERDELL: Fair enough. So but you did try to keep passenger manifests for flights on Epstein's planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Absolutely, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And a manifest, I think you described, among other things, contains the list of the passenger names if you have them; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And if you didn't know their names, you might put in something like one female or one male or one passenger to note a named passenger?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Exactly. We tried to at least identify the sex rather than just put one passenger. So that's why we had put male or female if we didn't catch a name.
MR. EVERDELL: Obviously, if you did know the name or it was a person you recognized from before, you would put their name on the manifest?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Absolutely.
MR. EVERDELL: And you said that it was important to keep track of the head count, which is why you wanted to know how many people were on the plane; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you said weight was also a consideration; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It's a consideration on some aircraft, not the kind that we're flying, but it's something that should take into account or as far as how heavy luggage is. But it is a consideration as a pilot to know how much something weighs as far as luggage and/or passenger.
MR. EVERDELL: And that's if you're flying a small plane, for example, you need to know the weight of the passengers?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Exactly, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But for the planes you were flying for Epstein, particularly the Gulf Stream and the Boeing, you didn't need to know the weight for those planes; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was not necessary, no. It's, like I said, more of a head count, but yeah, it's not a factor in these type of aircraft.
MR. EVERDELL: Right, because the Boeing, as we saw it, it's huge; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And the Gulf Stream is not a little prop plane, it has a jet engine; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct. It's not power challenged, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So it wasn't your practice to ask passengers their weight before they boarded?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, absolutely not.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, it was sometimes the case, wasn't it, that if one of Epstein's friends or acquaintances or family members needed to go to the same place he was flying, he would take them on his plane; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I'm sure on occasion. I don't know for a fact, but sure, if we were going to the same place, he may extend an invitation for somebody to come along.
MR. EVERDELL: He did have friends and family members and other people traveling on his plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct, yes. I see what you're saying.
MR. EVERDELL: It's like offering a lift in your car, except it's a jet?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You call these people tagalongs; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, there is several names, sure, but tagalongs or extra guest.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, in those cases, if the person or the tagalong was not a regular traveler, you might not know their name?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Or you might just be given their first name?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Not be given a name at all?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So that's an example of where you might put one female, one male?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, the manifest, you testified that you kept the manifest; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And then eventually you gave them to the New York office?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I think you sent them, if I recall, to someone named Lauren in New York; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You did not send them to Ghislaine, though; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, they went to the main office, whether it be Lauren -- haven't heard that name in a long time. That was a memory refreshed. Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: My pleasure. So you have no reason to believe that Ghislaine was reviewing these manifests; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, Ms. Maxwell had nothing to do with the passenger manifests.
MR. EVERDELL: So from your perspective, you had no reason to believe that Ghislaine would have known which passengers were on the flights that she didn't fly on herself?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I want to talk to you about a few specific flights. I think you mentioned in your testimony a place called Interlochen; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Interlochen is, I think you recall, an arts center; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: It hosts an arts camp in the summer for musicians and singers and actors and other types of artists; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And generally, in this summer camp, these artists, musicians, and singers are in high school; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I didn't know where they -- I knew it was just an upcoming school for talented, I guess, children, because I would take it they're more on the younger side than older.
MR. EVERDELL: Understood. Are you aware that Epstein himself attended the Interlochen Summer Arts Camp when he was a young man?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I did not.
MR. EVERDELL: Interlochen is located in Michigan?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And to get to Interlochen, you said you had to fly into Traverse City, Michigan?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: That's the closest airport?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is closest.
MR. EVERDELL: And in the 1990s, you flew into Traverse City at least once a year or maybe twice a year in the summer months, you recall; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall any of the passengers on those flights?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: Isn't it true that Itzhak Perlman flew on some of those flights?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: As you said, it just dawned on me, yes, Itzhak Perlman did fly on some of those flights, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Itzhak Perlman is a world famous violinist?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: It's fair to say that Epstein went to Interlochen almost every summer in the 1990s; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: He went there often in the '90s, but like you, said we are going back a ways. Yes, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You recall this being in the summer months?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Summer months, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: These flights typically took place in August, didn't they?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't know the exact month, but it was warm.
MR. EVERDELL: Let me see if I can show you something to refresh your recollection again. If we could pull up 3527-007 at page 2 just for the Court, the deputy, and the witness, please. We'll direct your attention, Mr. Visoski, from the bottom if you count up six or seven lines, if you look at those entries right there.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And you can look to the left-hand side, as well, in terms of the date.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Does that refresh your recollection about flying in the month of August to Interlochen?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure it does, yeah. This certainly would be a trip that we would do. I recognize the identifiers. So it would be in the trip that we would do during that timeframe, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So, you recall, I believe, right, that Epstein eventually had a cabin at Interlochen; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So he would be going there at the end of the summers to stay in his cabin and see the performances at the end of the Interlochen Summer Camp; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was my understanding, which it could have been hearsay information, that I thought the cabin was bought or built for Itzhak Perlman, but that was just a rumor I heard, but I don't know whether or not Mr. Epstein actually stayed in the cabin or he donated it to the Interlochen School. I don't know a whole lot of facts on it, just sheer of what I know, what I remember.
MR. EVERDELL: But on those trips, Ghislaine wasn't with him every time he went, was she?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't remember whether she was or not. I know Mr. Epstein was because he always traveled on the aircraft.
MR. EVERDELL: Let's take a look at that same document again to see if I can refresh your recollection. One moment.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: I'll call up that same page if I could, 3527-007 at page 2, just for the Court, the deputy, and the witness. We'll look at the same entries as you did before, Mr. Visoski.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay.
JUDGE NATHAN: Describe those, please.
MR. EVERDELL: Sorry. It's the sixth and seventh entries up from the bottom.
MR. EVERDELL: These are the ones we were looking at before; isn't that right, Mr. Visoski?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And if you look there, there is some indications of the passengers?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I see that.
MR. EVERDELL: And does that refresh your recollection about whether or not there were flights to Interlochen that Ms. Maxwell did not fly on?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I mean, it appears that way. Obviously this isn't my document, but I don't see Ms. Maxwell's name on there. It's just --
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained. I'll have the jury disregarded observations of the document that are not in evidence other than to refresh his recollection, which we've moved beyond.
MR. EVERDELL: Understood, your Honor. That's fine. Thank you, Mr. Visoski. We can take that down.
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, I think you also flew Mr. Epstein a number of times to Columbus, Ohio; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Columbus, Ohio is where Les Wexner lives?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Les Wexner is the billionaire owner of the Limited?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: That's the clothing company?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: It owns Victoria's Secret and Abercrombie & Fitch, among other companies?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And Les Wexner was a friend of Jeffrey Epstein's?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I believe they were friends.
MR. EVERDELL: He was one of Epstein's clients, wasn't he?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: To my knowledge, Mr. Epstein would call him a client, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And Epstein had a home and an office in Columbus, Ohio where Les Wexner's home was; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So he had a few reasons to go to Columbus, Ohio?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you were asked a few questions by the government about a woman we are referring to as Jane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Just to be clear, Jane is not her real name; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But you do know what her real name is?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: It's been shown to you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you recall seeing Jane on Epstein's plane on one occasion; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: One occasion for sure at the time that I had met her.
MR. EVERDELL: That's the only time you actually have a recollection?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That I have a recollection of, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you recall this I think being in the 1990s; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now you said, I believe, that you remember meeting her; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And that she was a singer; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes. That's the way Mr. Epstein introduced her as.
MR. EVERDELL: And you said that I think she had striking blue eyes; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You'll forgive the question, Mr. Visoski, but I think you also remembered that at the time you saw her, you remembered she had large breasts; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She was a mature woman, in my opinion.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, she looked to you like she was in her 20s, as we said before?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you remember that this meeting took place I think you said in Palm Beach?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was on the ramp in West Palm Beach, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, it was sometimes the case that Epstein would invite people onto the plane before takeoff to show them the plane; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And sometimes Epstein brought them into the cockpit to meet the pilots?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And these people didn't always fly on the planes; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct. He would bring passengers on just to show them the interior and the cockpit, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Sometimes he would show them around, they would look around, maybe meet the pilots, and then leave before takeoff?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Sitting here today, you don't know whether the woman you met, Jane, actually flew on that flight that you recall meeting her in the plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I wouldn't be able to swear that she actually flew on it. I know I met her in the cockpit.
MR. EVERDELL: And you don't remember where that flight was going?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I don't.
MR. EVERDELL: And you don't remember anybody else who was on that flight?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: And again, you don't recall seeing Jane specifically, seeing Jane on the plane or any plane at any other time except that one time in Palm Beach that you recall?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I can't visualize her sitting in the passenger compartment like I would, say, president Clinton. It was so long ago, but to answer your question, I can't visually see her sitting in the -- I see her standing in between the two pilot seats. That's my recollection of her.
MR. EVERDELL: On that one occasion?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: On that one occasion, yes, sir.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you met, I believe, with the government on several times before coming here to testify today; isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: And at one of those meetings, they showed you the same document that I've been showing you just today to refresh your recollection; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Was that reference to the logbook looking --
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay. I don't remember if I did see any from the government on that. I'm drawing a blank. I'm going to go with yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, do you recall them pointing out certain flights to you?
MR. EVERDELL: To see if you recall them?
MR. EVERDELL: You do remember that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And in particular, they pointed out certain flights to you where a female passenger was listed with just her first name. Do you remember that?
MR. EVERDELL: And that first name was the same as Jane's true first name; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that did not list the passenger's last name, right, just her true first name?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And there were three of those flights; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: As far as that same first name?
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I'm sure, yeah, there is at least three.
MR. EVERDELL: There was one in '96, one in '97, and one in '98 they showed you; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't remember the dates, Mr. Everdell.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you remember those three flights they showed you?
MR. EVERDELL: Well, when you met with the government and they showed you these three flights, you couldn't recall whether the woman we are referring to as Jane actually flew on those flights or whether it was somebody else with her same first name?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct. There was a -- the first names were the same, but there were no last names.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, sitting here today, you still don't know whether the women we're calling Jane flew on any of those flights; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Not to my knowledge. I mean, it was just -- I couldn't tell one from the other with no last name and 20 -- like you said, 20, 22 years ago.
MR. EVERDELL: Sure. But there were other people in Epstein's world who had that same true first name; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: For example, Epstein had an assistant with that same first name; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And it was spelled the same way, wasn't it?
MR. EVERDELL: And you met that person, didn't you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I did.
MR. EVERDELL: One moment, your Honor. Your Honor, I apologize for the delay. We have a slight choreography issue that we're dealing with here. I wonder if it might be appropriate if we could take a brief break to deal with it or I can try to do it without the issues of the choreography.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think a brief break would help with the choreography. I apologize.
JUDGE NATHAN: You mean to send the jury back to the jury room?
MS. COMEY: I think that might be necessary, your Honor. There is an exhibit that needs to be submitted under seal instead of on the screens.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Is it possible to move past this moment and then return to it later?
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, actually, we can do that. If I'm permitted to fix the problem and then display it later, we just have to return to this topic when we can figure this out. As long as I'm able to return to this topic and display things to the jury, that's fine.
MS. COMEY: That's fine with me, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: I don't usually tell lawyers what topics -- you're not going to get an asked and answered objection, if that's --
MR. EVERDELL: Yes. Understood, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: So we'll keep going for now. I presume we'll hit the lunch break time and then you can do the choreography.
MR. EVERDELL: That's fine, your Honor. We'll do that. We're breaking for lunch when?
JUDGE NATHAN: We have jury lunches at 12:30. If you're otherwise done by then, we'll break early and do that.
MR. EVERDELL: Let me see if I can also fix it in the meantime.
JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Everdell, my deputy reminds me, we have a close room with bathrooms, we can just do a short break for the jury.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: So we'll do a five-minute break, members of the jury. Ms. Williams will take you just to that first room where the restrooms are. Thank you.
(Recess)
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Are you set, Mr. Everdell?
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I have the copies. What I need to do is insert them into the folders.
MS. COMEY: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Go ahead, Mr. Everdell.
(Pause) Are you ready, Mr. Everdell?
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: The procedure will be you will direct the jury to open the folder under the chair and turn to a particular page?
MR. EVERDELL: Yes. This one will be done on paper, your Honor. We'll have it on the screen for the Court, the deputy, and the witness, but the jurors will just have it in paper, as will the government, and it will not be displayed to the public.
JUDGE NATHAN: This is choreography to maintain the anonymity of the witnesses who might be permitted to testify under pseudonyms?
MS. COMEY: That's exactly right, your Honor. And for that reason, we're going to ask that the two exhibits that the defense is about to offer be offered under seal.
JUDGE NATHAN: I am grateful to both counsel for working that through. Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: We'll bring in the jury.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, I guess it ended up being more a medium break, but you're getting your steps in. So, we are ready to proceed, Mr. Everdell, whenever you're ready.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Hi again, Mr. Visoski.
MR. EVERDELL: So when we broke, we were talking about other people in Epstein's world who had that same first name as we were talking about as Jane; right?
MR. EVERDELL: And you said that Epstein had an assistant with that same first name?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, there was another person with that same name.
MR. EVERDELL: And spelled the same way?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you met that person?
MR. EVERDELL: Now, just for the Court, the deputy, and for the witness, if you could please display LV3A and LV3B, if you can display them together.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you see those, Mr. Visoski?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MR. EVERDELL: Those are two photographs; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's two photographs.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recognize the person in those photographs?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MR. EVERDELL: Is it the same person in both photographs?
MR. EVERDELL: And you know that person's name?
MR. EVERDELL: Without telling us the name, is that the person we've been referring to just now that has the same first name as Jane's true first name?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct, yes, it is.
MR. EVERDELL: And is that a fair and accurate depiction of that woman?
MR. EVERDELL: The defense offers LV3A and LV3B.
MS. COMEY: No objection so long as they are sealed, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: We offer them under seal, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: LV3A and LV3B are admitted under seal consistent with my ruling allowed certain witnesses to testify under pseudonyms to protect their privacy.
(Defendant's Exhibits LV3A, LV3B received in evidence)
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor. Now if I could, with the Court's permission, members of the jury, you can take out the manilla folders that are under your chairs, but please don't open them yet. I would just, with the Court's permission, instruct, especially the jurors who are here on the right side of the jury box, as you look at the photos, because they are under seal, please do it in such a way that you do not display what you're looking at to the members of the gallery. So keep that manilla folder upright so no one could see, if you would. Is that right all right, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Is it okay with the government?
MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: If you would open the folders and please look at what's been marked as LV3A and LV3B. When you've had a chance to look, you can return the folders under your chair. And you can take that down.
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Now, Mr. Visoski, you spoke to this person in the photos on a number of occasions; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: In fact, you've spoke to her frequently enough that you even had her phone number in your cellphone; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And she traveled frequently with Mr. Epstein on his planes; isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: But that woman is not Jane, is she?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you testified earlier that you often didn't meet the passengers on the flights, you were just given their names sometimes before takeoff; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So, for all you know, there may have been many other people with that same first name as Jane's first name who traveled on Epstein's planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: True.
MR. EVERDELL: But the bottom line is, you don't know whether Jane was on any of those three flights where there is a passenger listed with Jane's true first name?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Not the three flights you made reference to. Without the last name, I didn't know which one you were referring to or who it was.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you. I want to ask you just about a few more flights.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: Are you familiar with Prince Andrew, the Duke of York?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I am.
MR. EVERDELL: He is the son of Queen Elizabeth II of England, is he not?
MR. EVERDELL: Did he ever fly on Epstein's planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, he did.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall the first time when he flew on the plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall someone named Emmy Tayler?
MR. EVERDELL: She was one of Ghislaine's assistants, wasn't she?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, she was.
MR. EVERDELL: She started working for Ghislaine in around 1997 or so; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't know the exact date and I actually didn't remember the name until you brought it up, but that's correct, that's a name from the past.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, did Emmy Tayler fly on Epstein's planes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, she did.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall the first time she flew?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: Are you familiar with the name Andy Farmer?
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall meeting or seeing anyone named Andy Farmer on any flights?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't remember. I know the name, but I think we're going back a long way.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, to your knowledge, is there any record of anyone named Andy Farmer ever flying on --
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't know of any record.
MR. EVERDELL: Just one moment, your Honor. I'll ask we put up for the Court, the deputy, and Mr. Visoski LV4 and LV5.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, do you see those documents in front of you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MR. EVERDELL: Each of those documents has a name on it; isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: Without objection, I believe we will offer these under seal as LV4 and LV5.
MS. COMEY: No objection, as long as they're under seal, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: LV4 and LV5 are admitted to the extent of my rulings that certain witnesses may testify pursuant to pseudonyms in order to protect them.
(Defendant's Exhibits LV4, LV5 received in evidence)
MR. EVERDELL: At this point, I will ask the members of the jury if the government is okay to pick up their folders one more time.
MS. COMEY: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Go ahead.
MR. EVERDELL: It's the same procedure as before. I'm going to ask you to look at the documents that are underneath the two photographs you've already looked at. Please do not show any of them to the members of the gallery.
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, I'm going to start with what's now in evidence as LV4; all right?
MR. EVERDELL: I'm going to refer to the person there as Kate, okay?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, LV4 has a true name on that exhibit; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recognize Kate's true name, the one that's on the paper of LV4?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Not really.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall meeting or seeing anyone with Kate's true name on any of the flights?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Not to my knowledge. It's not jumping out at me at all.
MR. EVERDELL: To your knowledge, there is no record with Kate's true name ever flying on any of Epstein's flights?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't recall any of them.
MR. EVERDELL: Now please look at LV5. That has a full name on it, too, doesn't it?
MR. EVERDELL: And that person's first name is Carolyn; correct?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm going to refer to that person by her first name, Carolyn, okay?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recognize Carolyn's full name that's on the paper, LV5?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall meeting or seeing anyone with Carolyn's full name on any flights?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: And to your knowledge, there is no record of anyone with Carolyn's full name flying on any of Epstein's flights?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Not to my knowledge. I don't have any memory at all.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, during your testimony so far, you've mentioned the names of some pretty important people; isn't that fair to say?
MR. EVERDELL: You already said that former president Bill Clinton flew on some of the flights?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, he did.
MR. EVERDELL: And Prince Andrew on some of the flights?
MR. EVERDELL: Itzhak Perlman, the famous violinist, on some of the flights?
MR. EVERDELL: Donald Trump, before he was president, also flew on Epstein's flights; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, he did.
MR. EVERDELL: He flew on them a number of times; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: There was more than once I believe, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Sometimes he flew with his family members, too; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't know -- I don't remember that. I certainly remember President Trump, but not nearly the other people associated with him. Like I said, if it was something special that would get embranded in my head, I certainly remember the president.
MR. EVERDELL: Did Robert Kennedy Jr. also fly on his plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't remember. I'm not remembering that one.
MR. EVERDELL: What about Senator John Glenn, the former astronaut?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do remember Senator Glenn, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Former Senator George Mitchell also flew on his plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do remember.
MR. EVERDELL: The actors Kevin Spacey and Chris Tucker also flew on his plane?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I remember them, as well.
MR. EVERDELL: It's fair to say that these are all pretty high profile people; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And these are people who the public at large would be interested in?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: And these are all people who are subject to a great deal of media attention and scrutiny; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I would assume so, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And these are all people who might have legitimate privacy concerns about their goings on?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, I think you were asked as part of your employment to sign a nondisclosure agreement?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, when you were asked to sign a nondisclosure agreement, you didn't think it was unusual, did you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Not at all.
MR. EVERDELL: And you certainly didn't take it to mean that you needed to sign it so you wouldn't disclose some kind of illegal activity that was happening on the plane, did you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, of course not.
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw anything that came close to that; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You just took it to mean you couldn't write a book about the stuff and the people you were interacting with; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct. Several of my colleagues have signed the same or similar documents in my profession. It's a fairly normal request.
MR. EVERDELL: So for people who fly private jets, this is a fairly common occurrence?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct, sure.
MR. EVERDELL: You have a lot of people, high profile people we just mentioned, who don't want necessarily all their business written about in a book; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Exactly.
MR. EVERDELL: I want to ask you a little bit about where you stayed when you flew to Epstein's residences. All right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, I believe your home is near Palm Beach; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it was.
MR. EVERDELL: So when you flew to Palm Beach, you stayed in your home; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: That's where you're based?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: When you flew to New York, where did you stay?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The first part of my employment with Mr. Epstein, I stayed in a hotel, but then later on, I was offered to stay at a building he owned, an apartment building on East 62nd or 66th Street. So I had my own apartment.
MR. EVERDELL: Was that 301 East 66th Street?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Is that where your partner, copilot Dave Rogers also stayed?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that's an apartment building?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: These are basically corporate apartments?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you know if Epstein owns that building or rents those apartments?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't know the actual business of it. It was to my knowledge that he owned the building.
MR. EVERDELL: But it's safe to say that you and Dave Rogers stayed there on your trips to New York?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you know if any other Epstein employees stayed there?
MR. EVERDELL: So you saw some other employees in the building when you were there; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: For example, you saw Sarah Kellen in the 66th Street building; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you remember any others you saw there?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The other person was the one we can't say the name.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So you saw the person whose photographs we just looked at, LV3A and LV3B; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You saw that woman in that apartment building?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But you never saw the woman we're referring to as Jane there, did you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, not -- no.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. Now, for the ranch in New Mexico, your recollection is that Epstein bought the ranch I think sometime in the mid 1990s; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And when he first bought the property, that large main house that we saw pictures of hadn't been built yet right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: That house was under construction for several years; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I think you said it was finished towards the end of the '90s, 2000?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So you stayed when you went to the ranch in the mid to late '90s -- well, where did you stay?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: In the early part of the mid '90s, I stayed at the Ranch Central in the bunkhouse rooms, and then later on I built a home on the ranch.
MR. EVERDELL: I'll ask you about that home in a bit. But for the first part, you stayed in Ranch Central; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Ranch Central, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And the ranch hands and the property manager stayed there, as well?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: They stayed in the other buildings associated with Ranch Central, but mostly the Ranch Central lodge or bedrooms were for guests that were on the aircraft. But everybody stayed, really, at Ranch Central, like you said, employees or workers on the ranch that lived there.
MR. EVERDELL: And you said that Epstein, before the main house was built, stayed in that triple-wide trailer you called the lodge; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And you've described it already, I think from the outside, it had a deck; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And it sort of looks nicer than a trailer does from the outside, it was outfitted that way?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: About how big was it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was probably around two 2,000 square feet.
MR. EVERDELL: You went inside it?
MR. EVERDELL: How many times were you inside that triple-wide trailer?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Many times.
MR. EVERDELL: And you described the interior before, but you mentioned a number of bedrooms. Can you just describe a little bit when you walk in the front door where things are situated from the front door entrance, the different rooms?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure. When you walked in the front door, there was -- immediately to your left, there was a fireplace on the wall. Across from the fireplace, there was a couch that faced the fireplace. You went further in, you're in the middle of the living room, which was you made a left turn that brought you into the master bedroom, and if you made a right turn, it took you to the two guest bedrooms on the right side of the trailer.
MR. EVERDELL: Were the guest bedrooms next to each other or how were they set up?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: There was a bedroom with a bathroom in between. They weren't a Jack and Jill bathroom, but it was still a bedroom, a bathroom in between, and then the other bedroom, but they were on the right side of the trailer. The left side of the trailer was the master bedroom. So it was a split floor plan.
MR. EVERDELL: But you didn't sleep there; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: On occasion I have slept there.
MR. EVERDELL: Where did you sleep, in one of the guestrooms?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: In one of the guestrooms, but this was a vacation where Mr. Epstein was on the ranch. It was before I built my home, so I was able to spend the time at the lodge. We're going really back far.
MR. EVERDELL: But eventually, and I think maybe it was in the 2000s or so, Epstein gave you some land; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Epstein gave you about 40 acres of land from his ranch so that you could build a house; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And he didn't charge you for that land?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, he did not.
MR. EVERDELL: And you built a house there?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I built the house there, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So from about 2000 onwards when you flew to the ranch, you'd stay at your home?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Let me ask you briefly about the trips to Epstein's island in the Virgin Islands. You said that's Little St. James Island?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: When you flew to the Virgin Islands, you didn't fly directly into little St. James, you said; right?
MR. EVERDELL: It doesn't have an airstrip?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You flew to St. Thomas, which is the bigger island right by?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You flew Epstein and his guests to Little St. James in a helicopter?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Because you're a trained helicopter pilot?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Where did you stay when you went on the trips to the Virgin Islands?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Typical hotel, Marriott Resorts that were there.
MR. EVERDELL: So you wouldn't stay in the island residence, you'd stay at St. Thomas?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I would bring the helicopter back and the crew would stay on St. Thomas in a regular hotel.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, we saw a number of photographs of Little St. James Island when you were on your direct testimony. Do you remember those?
MR. EVERDELL: I'm not going to call them up, there were a number of them. But you recall that they had structures on the property in those photographs; right?
MR. EVERDELL: They had the fully built houses on those photographs; right?
MR. EVERDELL: Well, when Epstein first bought the property, those houses weren't there; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Some of the buildings were not there. He added buildings, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So there was a fair amount of construction to make the island look the way it was in those photographs; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And was it about -- was it roughly '97 when he purchased the property?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was the late '90s, correct. I don't know the exact year, but you're correct that it was late '90s.
MR. EVERDELL: And that construction was going on for several years, wasn't it?
MR. EVERDELL: Including the helipad that was there?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The helipad moved a couple times, but yeah, it was -- it's kind of easy to do a helipad compared to a building, but yes, the helipad moved around.
MR. EVERDELL: And Ghislaine supervised all that construction?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She was involved, absolutely.
MR. EVERDELL: Separate question, Mr. Visoski. You are, I believe, somewhat of a car guy; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You like cars?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MR. EVERDELL: You enjoy looking at the latest models?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I like the classics.
MR. EVERDELL: You like the classics. Okay. Well, Epstein shared that interest with you; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: He also liked cars?
MR. EVERDELL: And you and he would discuss cars from time to time; isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: So he knew about your shared interest, you talked about this a lot?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now he, I believe, bought some cars that he registered in your name; isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: There was a 2008 Land Rover?
MR. EVERDELL: There was a 2005 Mercedes Benz CLK?
MR. EVERDELL: There was a 2005 Jaguar X-Type?
MR. EVERDELL: These were all kept at his residence in Palm Beach?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you could use the cars if you wanted to; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: If I wanted to, sure.
MR. EVERDELL: But you didn't consider them your cars?
MR. EVERDELL: They were Epstein's cars; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I'm sorry?
MR. EVERDELL: They were Epstein's cars; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And other people at the Palm Beach residence could use them, as well?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I believe Epstein also bought a 34-foot JVC powerboat; right?
MR. EVERDELL: That was registered to you, as well?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it was.
MR. EVERDELL: And you could use it if you wanted to; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But it wasn't -- you didn't consider it yours?
MR. EVERDELL: Are you also aware of a green Cobra sports car that Epstein had?
MR. EVERDELL: That one was not registered in your name; right?
MR. EVERDELL: Do you know where Epstein got that from?
MR. EVERDELL: Where did he get it from?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That came from Mr. Wexler in Columbus, Ohio.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you know approximately when he got that car?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It had to been -- I know the car was built in '94, Mr. Wexner held it for — I'm only guessing now — a year or two. So I would think Mr. Epstein got it '96, '97.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you know when he got rid of it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: When he got rid of the Cobra?
MR. EVERDELL: Yeah.
MR. EVERDELL: When was that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That was probably -- it was in my possession for 20 years. Probably around 2000.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you. Now, Mr. Visoski, in your testimony a little while ago, you said that Epstein gave you 40 acres of land on his ranch in New Mexico so you could build a house; right?
MR. EVERDELL: I think you would agree that was a pretty generous act on his part; yes?
MR. EVERDELL: Now, over the years, Epstein also gave you other gifts, as well; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: He gave other -- yes, he gave gifts to me as well as other employees, but yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Isn't it true that he paid for your children's tuition?
MR. EVERDELL: You have two daughters; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And he paid for both of their tuitions?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So were these private school tuitions when they were in high school?
MR. EVERDELL: Did he also pay for their college tuitions, as well?
MR. EVERDELL: Did you ever mention this to Ghislaine that Epstein was paying for your daughters' tuitions?
MR. EVERDELL: So she was aware of this fact, too?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Absolutely.
MR. EVERDELL: Did you ask Epstein to pay for your daughters' tuitions?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: He offered it when I first got hired. He said that he would take care of all employees' children's education. So we knew it was pretty much a given.
MR. EVERDELL: So he offered to do this for all of the employees that you're aware of?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You didn't have to ask him for it?
MR. EVERDELL: So fair to say that Epstein took an interest in seeing your young daughter succeed; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct. He believed in higher education.
MR. EVERDELL: And this was when they were high school aged and college aged; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, and even younger, grade school.
MR. EVERDELL: You didn't think there was anything inappropriate about that; right?
MR. EVERDELL: It was just a generous act on his part, wasn't it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Absolutely.
MR. EVERDELL: And you certainly didn't think that Epstein had any ulterior motive for being generous to your daughters, did you?
MR. EVERDELL: And he never asked you for anything in return, did he?
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, are you aware that Epstein had back problems?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: He complained about back problems, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Are you aware he often used a heating pad on his back?
MR. EVERDELL: And are you aware that he often got massages on a regular basis for the same reason?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, he did. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, for example, when you flew to the ranch in New Mexico, the ranch manager would sometimes arrange massages for Epstein; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It's what I heard from the ranch manager, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: When the masseuses showed up, they were from a professional saloon in Santa Fe?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: To my knowledge, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That was called the Ten Thousand Waves; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I know that salon existed and it was famous for massage service, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And he received massages from both male and female masseuses; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I didn't know their sexes, to be honest with you.
MR. EVERDELL: But to your knowledge, these were all adult professional masseuses?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Oh, absolutely.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, Mr. Visoski, I want to ask you some questions about where Epstein lived in New York and where Ghislaine lived in New York in the 1990s and the 2000s.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Epstein, I think you testified, had two different residences in New York from 1991 two 2005?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You visited both of these?
MR. EVERDELL: One of the reasons you would have gone to his residence was to pick up his luggage or drop it off before or after a flight; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That was typically the main reason, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Another reason you said you might have gone there was you had a hobby of installing home video and audio equipment and home theaters; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was home theater. I had been using the word "video equipment," but it was in the '90s when home theaters, the Dolby came out, so everybody was on installing that. So he got -- he was an audio/video person, too, as one on high fidelity. So we were doing home theaters in all the residences.
MR. EVERDELL: This is something you know how to do well?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, I had a knack for that, as well.
MR. EVERDELL: So your mechanics background helps with that?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it did.
MR. EVERDELL: And he liked having sort of the latest audio/video equipment or home theater equipment in his homes?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Absolutely.
MR. EVERDELL: So you would occasionally go to all of his homes and install this for him?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Absolutely, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Did this in all his residences, not just New York?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: All of them.
MR. EVERDELL: Palm Beach, Zorro Ranch, the island?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I want to focus on his residences in New York. Your recollection is that when you first began working for him in '91, he lived on a residence on 69th Street; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, that was of the first residences I remember. I think I only maybe went there one time. It was very early on obviously, in '91.
MR. EVERDELL: Was that 34 East 69th Street?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I know it was 69th Street. I don't remember the number. But you are correct when you say 69th Street.
MR. EVERDELL: And then sometime after that, maybe in the mid '90s, he moved to a townhouse on 71st Street; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: That's the one we saw photographs of?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct, that's the 9 East 71st Street.
MR. EVERDELL: That's right off Fifth Avenue and Central Park?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And these are the only two New York residences you recall for Epstein; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: That's where you go to pick up his luggage and install video equipment?
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you also went to Ghislaine's residences during the same period, didn't you?
MR. EVERDELL: And you went for the same purposes; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it was exactly -- yes, for luggage and such.
MR. EVERDELL: You'd go pick up her luggage from the residence, drop it off there?
MR. EVERDELL: I think you also did the home theater work for her residences, as well?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Exactly, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, Ghislaine had several different residences in New York from 1991 to 2005; isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: And I believe you said you think you went to all of them?
MR. EVERDELL: So when you first started working for Epstein in '91, she lived in an apartment on -- you said a small apartment on the east side of Manhattan; is that right?
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall if that was 20 East 66th Street?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't remember the -- I definitely don't remember the 66th Street because I would have remembered that was the apartment building where we stayed, but I don't remember the address of her very first place.
MR. EVERDELL: And then at some point in the mid '90s, she moved to a different apartment on the east side on 84th Street?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do remember 84th Street, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I think you described that before in your testimony?
MR. EVERDELL: Was that 114 East 84th Street?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it was.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall her living for a few years in the late '90s and early 2000s at an apartment on East 81st Street?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't remember 81st Street. I just remember 84th Street.
MR. EVERDELL: But you do recall that, at some point, maybe in the early 2000s, she moved to a townhouse on East 65th Street?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do remember 65th Street, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And that was 301 East 65th Street; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, 301 -- well, 301 was the apartment. 66th Street, that address on 65th, which I want to say it was 116 or 114 East 65th Street --
MR. EVERDELL: One moment, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: Sorry. I'm going to correct myself. It was 116 East 65th Street?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: There you go. That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: These are all the New York residences that you recall for Ghislaine; correct?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, it is.
MR. EVERDELL: These are all different residences than the residences that Epstein had as we discussed; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that's where you'd pick up Ghislaine's luggage from; right?
MR. EVERDELL: You wouldn't pick it up from one of Epstein's residences; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, not unless I was picking up Jeffrey's luggage, I went to Mr. Epstein's residence.
MR. EVERDELL: So at all times from 1991 to the 2000s, Ghislaine maintained a separate residence in New York from Mr. Epstein's; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, I have one related question about the home theater equipment you installed. You testified that you installed this type of equipment in virtually all of Epstein's residences; right?
MR. EVERDELL: And you installed it in his residence in Palm Beach, you said; right?
MR. EVERDELL: So that Palm Beach residence was 358 El Brillo Way in Palm Beach?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall a time when the El Brillo Way residence was being renovated and Epstein had to move to a rental residence in Palm Beach?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do remember that time.
MR. EVERDELL: And did you install the sort of home theater or any audio equipment in the rental residence?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't recall installing in the rental residence, no.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall where the rental residence was located in Palm Beach?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't know the address. I know approximately where it was, but I don't remember the address.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall when the renovation took place?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do not. I'd only be guessing if I said the mid 1990s, but I can't give you an accurate date. Nothing sticks out in my head on that.
MR. EVERDELL: Best guess is sometime in the mid '90s?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Mid '90s, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall how long the renovation lasted?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was a pretty serious renovation. I'd only be guessing if I said six to eight months.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor should I continue?
JUDGE NATHAN: How much longer do you have?
MR. EVERDELL: I'm going to have probably about 20 more minutes.
JUDGE NATHAN: Keep going for now. I'll let you know. Keep going for now.
MR. EVERDELL: Understood.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Visoski, I want to ask you some questions about your sense of the relationship between Epstein and Ghislaine. Okay?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you said you flew on numerous flights both of them; right?
MR. EVERDELL: And you interacted with them on a regular basis for several years from the 1990s and the 2000s; right?
MR. EVERDELL: So I think you got a sense of what Ghislaine did for Mr. Epstein; right?
MR. EVERDELL: And you testified that she was one of the assistants he had in his office; right?
MR. EVERDELL: He had lots of assistants; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, in the mid '90s through the end of the 1990s, Ghislaine was the assistant who took care of Epstein's properties; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: She would make sure the cleaning people came; right?
MR. EVERDELL: Or the -- well, there were -- I should clarify. There were staff at each one of these residences; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, she took -- yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And there were house managers at each one of these residences?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So they would take care of, sort of, the day-to-day of each of these residences?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Exactly. She was in charge of the house managers, making sure that --
MR. EVERDELL: Right.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: -- it got taken care of.
MR. EVERDELL: She supervised the house managers who did the day-to-day?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: If there was something wrong, ultimately it was her responsibility if there was a problem?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It probably would have been the first phone call to Ms. Maxwell to say we got a problem.
MR. EVERDELL: If there was a problem with a pool guy not coming and the house manager wasn't dealing with it, Ghislaine would deal with it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She would jump on it.
MR. EVERDELL: Same thing, cleaning people didn't come on time and it wasn't being addressed correctly, Ghislaine had to deal with that?
MR. EVERDELL: She would manage the household staff as a supervisory over the household manager?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: She would also oversee repairs and renovations and decorating?
MR. EVERDELL: Things like that?
MR. EVERDELL: She was a shopper for Epstein; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She liked to shop.
MR. EVERDELL: She bought furniture and things like that for the residences?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: She bought household items?
MR. EVERDELL: She decorated the planes, too; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She had a lot put into the airplanes, stocking the airplane on what we carry as far as beverages.
MR. EVERDELL: We saw photographs of the plane, right, this isn't a matter of hanging a few curtains; right?
MR. EVERDELL: This is a pretty big job to outfit one of these planes correctly for their flight?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: And we also saw these properties; right? They were -- let's talk about the ranch in particular. That was a large piece of property; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: A lot of square footage, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You said 10,000 acres, roughly?
MR. EVERDELL: It's a pretty big job to manage those properties; right?
MR. EVERDELL: In particular, just to call out the ranch for a moment, there were animals on that property; right?
MR. EVERDELL: There were horses in the stables?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She loved her horses.
MR. EVERDELL: She took care of the horses; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, she did.
MR. EVERDELL: She took care of the other animals on the property?
MR. EVERDELL: This took a lot of Ghislaine's time and energy to do this job, didn't it?
MR. EVERDELL: And she had to travel to the properties from time to time to do this work; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, I think in your testimony, you called her Epstein's number 2; right?
MR. EVERDELL: But from your perspective, she was dealing with the aircraft and the properties; right?
MR. EVERDELL: She wasn't dealing with Epstein's finances; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, not the business side. It was Jeffrey household personal.
MR. EVERDELL: The reason why you call her number 2 is because she was generally overseeing the running of the households; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But as we said, she wasn't on site at each of these properties every single day running the day-to-day of these households?
MR. EVERDELL: There were house managers that did that on a day-to-day basis?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, your recollection is that Ghislaine generally worked out of Epstein's offices in New York; isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: And you testified there was a room in Epstein's offices that had about five desks in it that was sort of off to the right of his office?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that's what you called the personal assistants' room; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: There was no official name for it, but it was my best description of who was in that room.
MR. EVERDELL: And Ghislaine was one of the personal assistants who had a desk in that room?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, when you first met Ghislaine in 1991, she seemed to you to be just an employee of Epstein; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It might in the first introduction.
MR. EVERDELL: So at that point early on, I'm talking '91, '92 when you first started working, it didn't seem to you like she had a personal relationship with Epstein; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No. I believe when Mr. Epstein introduced her, that he needed help because he was expanding, getting bigger, you know, first time he had his own private jet, that he needed help to handle everything else in his life so that he could focus on his business. And when you start buying homes and properties, he --
MR. EVERDELL: I'm sorry to interrupt.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: He knew he was going to get busy. So Ghislaine was his go-to person to handle everything else that was not business-related with his company.
MR. EVERDELL: So I think you said at some point, though, in the mid '90s, it may have appeared to you that Ghislaine was involved in a personal relationship with Epstein; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, I thought they were a couple in the mid '90s. It's just my own take on it.
MR. EVERDELL: And that was based on your observations of them together at the time and how they interacted with each other?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: They made travel plans together, they talked to each other, things like that?
MR. EVERDELL: But I think you testified that it wasn't totally clear to you that Epstein and Ghislaine had a romantic relationship; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, I don't know what the definition of a romantic relationship is as opposed to just relationship. To me, romantic would mean a more involved relationship. I wasn't aware of anything more than a couple.
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw them kiss you said; right?
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw them hold hands?
MR. EVERDELL: Now, it's fair to say, isn't it, that a lot of women were flying on the plane with Epstein in the mid '90s; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: It's fair to say that there were plenty of times that Epstein was flying on the plane with these women without Ghislaine?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: There has been times, sure.
MR. EVERDELL: It appeared to you that these women were adult women?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Oh, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So from your vantage point, whether Ghislaine or any one of these other women was somebody romantically involved or something else, is a little blurry; right?
MR. EVERDELL: In fact, I think the only person you really considered to be a girlfriend of Epstein was Eva Dubin; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's the way she was introduced, as one of Mr. Epstein's original first girlfriends, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: By the time you started, she was an ex-girlfriend; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Exactly.
MR. EVERDELL: She was with him in the 1980s?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, before my time.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, Eva Dubin, before she was married, went by Eva Anderson?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: She was a former Ms. Sweden?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's what I heard.
MR. EVERDELL: She later married Glenn Dubin; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Glenn Dubin is a billionaire hedge fund manager; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: From my understanding, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: He was one of Epstein's clients; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't know if he was a client. I know he was a friend.
MR. EVERDELL: But during the period when Ghislaine and Epstein appeared to you to have some sort of a personal relationship, she continued to work for him as an employee; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Who's that, Ms. Maxwell?
MR. EVERDELL: Ms. Maxwell, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Ghislaine. I'm talking Ghislaine still took care of the houses?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She still shopped for him?
MR. EVERDELL: And you talked to her about the work she did for Epstein, didn't you?
MR. EVERDELL: She would talk about all the work she was doing on these houses, wouldn't she?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, she would tell what's going on and the troubles of decorating and house managers, et cetera, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She'd talk about how demanding the job was; right?
MR. EVERDELL: Now, at some point, it appeared to you that whatever the personal relationship was between Epstein and Ghislaine sort of fizzled out; is that right?
MR. EVERDELL: And I think that was in about 2000, right, the best of your recollection?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was the early 2000s, correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, Ghislaine was still traveling with Epstein in the early 2000s; right?
MR. EVERDELL: She was still his friend?
MR. EVERDELL: But by that time, her role in Epstein's life was decreasing, wasn't it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't know how the decreasing point did, but it just wasn't as personal, it was obviously more business, because in early 2000s is when we went around the world in the Boeing. It was just decreasing.
MR. EVERDELL: It was all business; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was all business.
MR. EVERDELL: And Epstein, at that time, brought in other people to help run his day-to-day business, didn't he?
MR. EVERDELL: You testified already that Sarah Kellen appeared around that time in the early 2000s; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: She was another one of Epstein's personal assistants?
MR. EVERDELL: And she became the person or one of the people you spoke to about arranging flights; right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And do you recall the name Adriana Mucinska?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I remember that name.
MR. EVERDELL: She also became one of Epstein's assistants around that same point in the 2000s; isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: And you interacted with her?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, not as much, but yeah, I did. It's not like I would with Ms. Kellen, but yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And there were, in fact, many other assistants who appeared over the years in the 2000s, as well, weren't there?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: There was many, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you testified that by 2004 or so, to the best of your recollection, Ghislaine was traveling much less frequently on Epstein's planes; isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: She was moving on from Epstein, was she not?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Isn't it true that by 2004, Ghislaine was in a committed relationship with another man?
MR. EVERDELL: You're familiar with Ted Waitt?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I am.
MR. EVERDELL: He's the cofounder of Gateway Incorporated, the computer company, isn't he?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And Ghislaine was in a relationship with Ted Waitt by 2004, wasn't she?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I don't know if it was a relationship, but I know she was spending a lot of time with Mr. Waitt, and I think he was completing a boat that she was involved in decorating and building a helipad on it. So it was a different transfer to Mr. Weight.
MR. EVERDELL: And, in fact, I think Ghislaine introduced you to Waitt's pilots, you guys became friends?
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, this is a convenient stopping point.
JUDGE NATHAN: We'll break here for lunch. Members of the jury, we'll take about a 45-minute lunch break. Enjoy your lunch. Thank you for your continued attention. Witness may step down for the lunch break.
(Continued on next page)
(Jury not present)
(Witness not present) Matters to take up before the break.
MS. COMEY: No, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: Nothing, your Honor.
(Recess)
(Continued on next page) A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 1:35 P.M.
JUDGE NATHAN: Matters to take up, counsel?
MS. COMEY: Very briefly, your Honor. Some of the courtroom sketch artists have indicated confusion about the order about who they are allowed to draw and not. And so I think we would propose that before we call a witness who cannot be sketched, that that be put on the record.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. The only restriction is with respect to the witnesses who I've permitted to testify anonymously.
MS. COMEY: That's correct, your Honor. And any sealed exhibits, if someone were to somehow glimpse a sealed exhibit, though I think that's unlikely given the precautions we're taking.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. So let's just talk through the protocol, also what the witness will be called using the pseudonym.
MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: And then I'll swear them in. I would typically say, State your name for the record. I'll just say, I've granted you permission to testify under the pseudonym, fill in the blank. And then turn the witness over for questioning.
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: And when I do that, I'll ask the sketch artist not to draw exact likeness of that witness, consistent with my ruling.
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Thank you.
MS. COMEY: Nothing further.
JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Everdell?
MR. EVERDELL: Nothing from the defense, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. We can bring the witness back. And Ms. Williams, please bring in the jury.
(Jury present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Members of the jury, I hope you had a pleasant lunch. Thank you. THE LAW CLERK: Judge, one second.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Thank you. Everyone, I hope you had a good lunch. Thank you for your continued attention and diligence. Mr. Everdell, you may continue with your cross-examination of Mr. Visoski. Mr. Visoski, I remind you you are under oath.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, ma'am.
JUDGE NATHAN: Go ahead.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor. LAWRENCE VISOSKI, resumed.
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Good afternoon, Mr. Visoski.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Good afternoon, Mr. Everdell.
MR. EVERDELL: I just want to begin with a quick question about the ranch, all right?
MR. EVERDELL: You testified before that it had a lot of acreage?
MR. EVERDELL: I think you said roughly 10,000 acres or so?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: 10,000, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And there was a lot of open space on that ranch, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And one of the things that guests, I think, typically like to do when they were there was to go hiking, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Lots of places they could go hiking on the ranch?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure they could, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But it's true, isn't it, that the property had a lot of rattlesnakes on it, isn't it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, there are several rattlesnakes, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And it was wild country out there.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And so if you were going to hike on this property, you needed proper footwear to go hiking, right?
MR. EVERDELL: All right. So people would typically wear boots to go hiking?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That would be a first choice, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And that would be recommended for any guest who wanted to go hiking, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes. Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Thank you. And I'll just say, I was reminded by the court reporter that we shouldn't talk over each other, so I'll try not to do it and we'll do the same, okay?
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you. All right. I want to talk to you a bit about your enter actions with Ghislaine.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: You testified that you first met Ghislaine in about 1991, when you started to work for Mr. Epstein, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And Ghislaine would have been about 29 or 30 years or so when you first met her?
MR. EVERDELL: And Epstein would have been about 37 or 38 at the time; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is right.
MR. EVERDELL: And you said that Ghislaine flew on numerous flights with you in the 1990s and 2000s, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And so you knew her and you interacted with her for, it would be, about 15 years, from the early 1990s to the mid 2000s; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, in that whole time period, Ghislaine never appeared to you to be pregnant, did she?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, not at all.
MR. EVERDELL: No one ever told you she was pregnant?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, never said that.
MR. EVERDELL: And you never saw any pictures of her pregnant at any of the residences?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I did not.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you had some regular interactions with Ghislaine about your job, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: For example, I believe Ghislaine reviewed your expense reports?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, that was one detail, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So you said you took your expense reports to the New York office maybe about once a week?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, whenever I was in New York; correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And it was Ghislaine's job to review them and approve them, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was one of her duties, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you also talked to her about scheduling maintenance visits for the planes, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you talked to her about scheduling your own vacations, right?
MR. EVERDELL: So generally speaking, these were the main interactions you had with Ghislaine regarding employment issues and your job?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, that was a good description of a lot of the interaction that I had with Ms. Maxwell; correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But now when Ghislaine had time when she wasn't working, she spent time on other pursuits, right?
MR. EVERDELL: She became a trained emergency medical technician, didn't she?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I know she had some medical training, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: EMT?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: EMT, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she also became a trained helicopter pilot, too?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, she did.
MR. EVERDELL: You, yourself, are a trained helicopter pilot, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I am.
MR. EVERDELL: And you traveled with Ghislaine when she went to school to become a trained helicopter pilot, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, we traveled frequently together.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, Epstein bought his first helicopter, your recollection was, sometime around 1990, 2000; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, '99 to 2000; correct. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So sometime, I believe, in the early 2000s, Ghislaine went to school to become a trained helicopter pilot; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, she did.
MR. EVERDELL: That school was in Pompano Beach, Florida?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Pompano Beach is about an hour or so drive south of Palm Beach, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, give or take traffic. It could be longer some days; but, yes, it's approximately an hour from Palm Beach to Pompano.
MR. EVERDELL: And the training sessions that she was taking were about one to three times per week, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Each training session lasted about three to four hours, isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, if not longer. Because there's a lot of preparation before you fly, and you're flying for an hour and a half, and then you're still talking about it afterwards, you know, with your instructor, and then your drive home. So it could be a long duration.
MR. EVERDELL: Right. So each training session was basically a full-day event, wasn't it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Sure, it was.
MR. EVERDELL: You had to drive, take the course, talk to the instructor, drive back, all that took about a day, right?
MR. EVERDELL: So it's fair to say she was away from the Palm Beach residence for the whole day when she was taking these courses, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, good chance, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And that helicopter course that she took took about eight months to a year to complete, isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: That course took a fair amount of time, didn't it?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Took a lot of time, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And it goes without saying that at the time, the time that Ghislaine spent at those training sessions in Pompano Beach, she was not at Epstein's residence in Palm Beach, isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's a correct assumption.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you also accompanied Ghislaine to a different helicopter training school in Dallas, Texas; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you remember when that was?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It was definitely once a year, because we were required to go back for recurrent training. But I don't know the dates, but it was definitely once a year we would go to Dallas for training together.
MR. EVERDELL: And do you remember how long that training lasted on those trips?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That class, it was typically, I believe, four days; two days of ground school, and two or three days of flight. It could be four to five days, if memory serves.
MR. EVERDELL: And those training sessions that you're referring to in Dallas, you said, took place every year you recall, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Every year is a requirement for us as pilots.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you remember when in the year those took place?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I do not. I remember it being warm, not extremely cold, so I would have to do the summer months; but, you know, the dates escape me without any documentation of when we took the courses.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. You guys had fun on those trips, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The training was hard, but we tried to make the best of it.
MR. EVERDELL: I mean, you occasionally went out to a steak dinner while you were there together?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, we did.
MR. EVERDELL: Those were fun events, right?
MR. EVERDELL: Now, once Ghislaine had her pilot's license, her helicopter pilot's license --
MR. EVERDELL: -- she flew Epstein's helicopter; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, she did fly the helicopter.
MR. EVERDELL: You accompanied her on those flights as the more experienced pilot?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, I was going to go in that direction, but yes, I accompanied her as a safety pilot. We flew together.
MR. EVERDELL: And to your knowledge, that was Epstein's helicopter, not Ghislaine's helicopter, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So Ghislaine couldn't call you up and say, I want to fly the helicopter. Have it ready for me. Right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: She might have; but, no, that wasn't the normal situation. We always had a mission to go on, and it was probably Mr. Epstein driven. But to my knowledge, it was Mr. Epstein's helicopter, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: To your knowledge, it was Mr. Epstein who controlled whether or not the helicopter was flown or not?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Correct. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Now, you said that when Ghislaine did fly the helicopter, you would fly with her as the more experienced pilot?
MR. EVERDELL: And you got to know her a little bit from that too, from your shared enjoyment of piloting helicopters, right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, we talked a lot about aviation.
MR. EVERDELL: And you remember her as a nice person, right?
MR. EVERDELL: And you felt comfortable around her?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I did.
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw Ghislaine do anything or say anything that would lead you to believe she was helping Epstein or anyone else sexually abuse underage girls?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, not at all.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, Mr. Visoski, you testified before that you have two girls of your own.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: When you started working for Epstein in 1991, how old were your daughters?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: When I started working, well, one was one year old and one was not born yet.
MR. EVERDELL: And in the mid 1990s, how old would they have been then?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Mid 1990s. So if you're going to use 1995, so one would be five years old and one would be one year old.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And by the time you get to the mid 2000s, let's call it 2004, just to pick a date, how old would they have been then?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay. It's a math quiz. Let's see.
MR. EVERDELL: Sorry.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: We're '94. So we're talking 14 -- 11 and 14.
MR. EVERDELL: So I said 2004; is that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: 2004; correct. So one would be 14. One was born in '90, and the other, '94. So, yeah, 14 and 11-ish.
MR. EVERDELL: So one was a teenager and one was a preteen?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, your daughters occasionally spent time with Ghislaine on the ranch in New Mexico, especially after you built your house there; isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: They loved the animals, I believe, right?
MR. EVERDELL: Especially the horses?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yeah, they are horse lovers.
MR. EVERDELL: And sometimes Ghislaine would take them riding on the horses at the ranch; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, my daughters did ride at the ranch on the horses, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: They did that a fair amount?
MR. EVERDELL: And you trusted Ghislaine enough that you felt comfortable letting your two young daughters spent time with her; isn't that right?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: If you had any inkling whatsoever that Ghislaine was involved in helping Epstein sexually abuse young girls, you wouldn't have let that happen, would you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Absolutely not.
MR. EVERDELL: And if you had any inkling whatsoever that Ghislaine or Epstein were involved in inappropriate sexual activity with underage girls, what would you have done?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: They would have never seen my daughters.
MR. EVERDELL: And you would have quit your job?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Reported it, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you would have quit your job?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I would have quit my job, that's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But you didn't do that, did you?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I didn't.
MR. EVERDELL: Because nothing you saw or heard in the roughly 30 years you worked for Epstein ever gave you even the slightest hint that anything like that was going on?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: This is absolutely correct.
MR. EVERDELL: One moment, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
(Counsel conferred)
MR. EVERDELL: Nothing further, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Thank you. Ms. Comey.
MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may redirect.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Good afternoon.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Good afternoon, Ms. Comey.
MS. COMEY: Do you recall being asked questions about your daughters on cross-examination, Mr. Visoski?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, I do.
MS. COMEY: When your daughters were 14 years old, did you let them give Mr. Epstein a massage?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I didn't.
MS. COMEY: Do you recall being asked about Jane and another person who has the same first name as Jane?
MS. COMEY: Who did you meet first, Jane or the person who is identified in Defense Exhibits LV3A and LV3B?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: The only way to kind of refresh my memory, Ms. Comey, to narrow down that, I could only -- like when I -- when I explained that I first met Jane, it was in between the two pilot seats. So I know that was one of Mr. Epstein's smaller aircraft; it wasn't the Boeing. So visually, I can picture the second Jane. You have to help me out which one it was. Not the one -- not the first Jane, but the other Jane I could visualize in the Boeing which would have been sometime 2000 and later.
MS. COMEY: So to the best of your recollection, did you meet the person we're calling Jane in the 1990s?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I would go with that one, yes, only because with that document of the airplane with, you know, that time frame, I remember the other Jane was in the Boeing, the bigger plane.
MS. COMEY: I just want to make this clear because I know we're dealing with some pseudonym issues, so just listen to the question please.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Okay.
MS. COMEY: The person we're calling Jane --
MS. COMEY: -- did you meet her in the 1990s, to the best of your recollection?
MS. COMEY: And the person who is depicted in Defense Exhibits LV3A and LV3B, did you meet her in the 2000s, to the best of your recollection?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes. To the best of my recollection, that's a perfect example of how I could remember; so that is correct, yes, Ms. Comey.
MS. COMEY: And do you have that memory because the person depicted in Defense Exhibits LV3A and 3B you remember on the Boeing?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: That's correct. That was my synopsis.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sorry. Just a moment.
MR. EVERDELL: Objection. Leading.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. You may finish. You may finish your answer.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Oh, I'm sorry. A. That is correct, Ms. Comey. It was a way of correlating a name to a date or a person to a date.
MS. COMEY: Do you remember being asked on cross-examination about how old you thought Jane may have been?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I remember that question, yes.
MS. COMEY: Did you ever meet Jane at summer camp when she was a camper?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I did not, no.
MS. COMEY: Did you ever pick Jane up at high school?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I did not, ma'am.
MS. COMEY: Did you ever talk with Jane about camp?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I did not.
MS. COMEY: Did you ever talk with Jane about high school?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, ma'am.
MS. COMEY: Did you ever meet Jane's mother?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: No, I did not.
MS. COMEY: Did you meet Jane's other family members?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: I did not.
MS. COMEY: And finally, Mr. Visoski, do you recall being asked about a Cobra vehicle?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Yes, ma'am.
MS. COMEY: Do you remember exactly when Mr. Epstein gave you that vehicle?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Also to clarify, it's a replica Cobra. Probably in the 2000s, 2000; it's been around 20 years since I've had it. I would say 2000, give or take. I don't have an exact date.
MS. COMEY: As you sit here today, do you remember the exact date or is that an approximation?
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: It's just an approximation. I do not know the exact date.
MS. COMEY: May I have a moment, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred)
MS. COMEY: Nothing further.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Nothing from the defense.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Thank you, Mr. Visoski. You may step down. You are excused.
LAWRENCE VISOSKI: Thank you very much, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
(Witness excused)
JUDGE NATHAN: Do you have a matter to take up?
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor. You may want to collect the binders and folders before the next witness or at least the defense folders.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Or we leave them there?
MR. EVERDELL: There may be another -- it's fine, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Jurors, you know this, but don't look at anything unless I direct you to, please. And there may be instances in which I direct you to, but wait for that direction. Ms. Comey, the government may call its next witness.
JUDGE NATHAN: The witness testifying under the pseudonym Jane may come forward. JANE, called as a witness by the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
JUDGE NATHAN: Please be seated. This witness will be testifying under the pseudonym Jane. Ms. Moe, you may proceed.
MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. And with respect to the Court's order regarding sketch artists, is that now in effect?
JUDGE NATHAN: It is in effect. I've asked the sketch artist not to sketch the exact likeness -- ordered the sketch artist not to depict the exact likeness. And I will ask the witness to please remove your mask. You are in the Plexiglas box with the HEPA filter. Thank you.