David Rodgers — Direct/Cross/Redirect (Continued)
2,139 linesMS. COMEY: Good afternoon, Mr. Rodgers.
DAVID RODGERS: Good afternoon.
MS. COMEY: How many female passengers on Mr. Epstein's planes, if any, do you recall who you understood attended Interlochen?
DAVID RODGERS: One.
MS. COMEY: Do you know that person's name, without saying it, do you know that person's name?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: I'd like you to please turn in the binder in front of you to what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 12. Without saying the name out loud, would you please look at the first and last name on that exhibit.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is that the full name of the passenger on Mr. Epstein's plane who you understood attended Interlochen?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, it is.
MS. COMEY: I'm going to refer to her as Jane and I would ask that you do the same.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MS. COMEY: You can set that aside for now. Mr. Rodgers, about when do you remember first meeting Jane?
DAVID RODGERS: I believe that was November the 11th, 1996.
MS. COMEY: Backing up, what do you remember about meeting her?
DAVID RODGERS: She was a passenger on our flight.
MS. COMEY: And who do you remember Jane flying with?
DAVID RODGERS: She's flown with Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, and other people, as well.
MS. COMEY: About how many times do you remember seeing Jane as a passenger on one of Mr. Epstein's planes?
DAVID RODGERS: Four times.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to turn back to Government Exhibit 662, please.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I'd ask that the jurors also turn in their binders to that exhibit.
JUDGE NATHAN: Jurors, you may look at GX662. Large binder?
MS. COMEY: Yes. Ms. Drescher, would you please pull that up, as well. We're going to go to page 44.
JUDGE NATHAN: You mean pull up 662R?
MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. 662R.
MS. COMEY: Again, Mr. Rodgers, we're going to page 44 of this exhibit.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MS. COMEY: I'll direct your attention to flight number 916.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MS. COMEY: Just want to make sure everyone has gotten there. Mr. Rodgers, turning to flight number 916, can you tell us the date of this flight, please.
DAVID RODGERS: It's November the 11th, 1996.
MS. COMEY: And how do you know it's November, looking at this?
DAVID RODGERS: If you look up above the 11, you'll see November, N-O-V. And then at the very top of the page, you'll see 1996.
MS. COMEY: What plane were you flying?
DAVID RODGERS: This is the Gulf Stream G2B.
MS. COMEY: Where were you flying from and where were you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: Flying from Palm Beach, Florida, to Teterboro, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Jane a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And do you see just her first name written in the column where the passengers are?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And are there a number of other passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to go to the very next flight. What's the date of the next flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Next flight is November the 15th, 1996.
MS. COMEY: Where were you flying from and where were you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: Teterboro, New Jersey, to Columbus, Ohio.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Jane on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: No.
MS. COMEY: Are there some other passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Before we turn to the next page, just a question about Palm Beach International Airport. When you were flying out of that airport, what, if any, local employees of Mr. Epstein's do you remember driving passengers to the plane?
DAVID RODGERS: Juan Alessi.
MS. COMEY: Who was Juan Alessi?
DAVID RODGERS: He was the house manager for Jeffrey's house in Palm Beach.
MS. COMEY: And for about how long did Juan Alessi work for Mr. Epstein in Palm Beach?
DAVID RODGERS: Approximately 12 years.
MS. COMEY: And was that in the 1990s and early 2000s?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Objection. Leading.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll allow it, but --
MS. COMEY: Understood, your Honor.
MS. COMEY: Where would you see Mr. Alessi when you were flying out of Palm Beach?
DAVID RODGERS: He would drive the car up to the airplane with passengers to either drop them off or to pick them up.
MS. COMEY: I want to go now, please, to page 48 of this same exhibit. I would like to direct your attention to flight 979.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MS. COMEY: Can you tell us, please, the date of this flight.
DAVID RODGERS: This is May the 9th, 1997.
MS. COMEY: Where are you getting May and '97 from?
DAVID RODGERS: May is at the top of the column and '97 is just above it.
MS. COMEY: Where were you flying from and where were you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: From Teterboro, New Jersey, to Santa Fe, New Mexico.
MS. COMEY: When you flew to Santa Fe, New Mexico, what's your understanding of where Jeffrey Epstein was staying?
DAVID RODGERS: He stayed at his Zorro Ranch.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Jane a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is there anyone else who was a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: No.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to go to the very next flight, please. Would you please walk us through the date of that flight.
DAVID RODGERS: So May the 12th, 1997.
MS. COMEY: Where were you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Santa Fe, New Mexico, to Van Nuys, California.
MS. COMEY: Who was the only passenger?
DAVID RODGERS: Jeffrey Epstein.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to turn now, please, to page 55. Flight 1105 down at the bottom of the page.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MS. COMEY: Can you tell us the date of this flight, please.
DAVID RODGERS: This is May the 3rd, 1998.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and where are you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: Palm Beach, Florida, to Teterboro, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Jane a passenger on this flight?
MR. EVERDELL: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is it just her first name indicated on this flight log for this entry?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Are there a number of other passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to go to the very next flight, please, 1106. Would you walk us through the date of that flight, please.
DAVID RODGERS: It's May the 5th, 1998.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Teterboro, New Jersey, to Bedford, Massachusetts.
MS. COMEY: And is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is there one other passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to go now, please, back to page 40. I'd like to direct your attention to flight number 818. Can you tell us the date of this flight.
DAVID RODGERS: This is March the 29th, 1996.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Van Nuys, California, to Santa Fe, New Mexico.
MS. COMEY: And who is the only passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Jeffrey Epstein.
MS. COMEY: What is the number of the very next flight after 818?
DAVID RODGERS: 821.
MS. COMEY: Why the skip from 818 to 821?
DAVID RODGERS: I'm not on that flight.
MS. COMEY: So for flights 819 and 820, were you piloting those next two flights?
MS. COMEY: Let's go now to flight 821. What's the date of that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: This is April the 8th, 1996.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Palm Beach, Florida, to Teterboro, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Are there multiple other passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Now let's go, please, to page 41. I'll direct you to flight 844 close to the bottom of the page, please.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MS. COMEY: What's the date of this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: This is May 22nd, 1996.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and where are you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: Teterboro, New Jersey, to Santa Fe, New Mexico.
MS. COMEY: Who are the only two passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell.
MS. COMEY: What is the very next flight that date?
DAVID RODGERS: The 24th of May 1996.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and where are you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: Santa Fe, New Mexico, to Palm Beach, Florida.
MS. COMEY: Who are the only two passengers on that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to go now, please, to page 48. I'll direct you to flight 976 up close to the top.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MS. COMEY: What is the date of this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: This is May 5th, 1997.
MS. COMEY: Where were you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: From Geneva, Switzerland, to Paris, France.
MS. COMEY: And who is the only passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Jeffrey Epstein.
MS. COMEY: What was your understanding of where Jeffrey Epstein was staying when you flew into Paris, France?
DAVID RODGERS: He had an apartment in Paris, France.
MS. COMEY: And would you walk us through the very next flight, please, starting with the date.
DAVID RODGERS: May 6th, 1997.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Paris, France, to Stephenville, Canada.
MS. COMEY: Are the only two passengers on this flight, Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to go now, please, to page 85. I'm going to direct you near the center of the page to flight 1.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MS. COMEY: Why have the numbers restarted at 1?
DAVID RODGERS: This is our first trip in the Boeing 727.
MS. COMEY: How do you know you're flying the Boeing?
DAVID RODGERS: Because under the aircraft make and model, it says B727-31.
MS. COMEY: So why did you restart the numbers?
DAVID RODGERS: Because we wanted to keep the numbering going for the Gulf Stream, and so we began all over with the Boeing starting at number 1.
MS. COMEY: Did you continue flying the Gulf Stream, though?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: How did you handle the numbering for the Gulf Stream?
DAVID RODGERS: In sequential order. It continued on.
MS. COMEY: Let's turn to page 87, then, to take a look. Here we have a flight 24, and then what's the very next flight after flight 24?
DAVID RODGERS: After 24 is 1538.
MS. COMEY: Why the big jump?
DAVID RODGERS: Because we were in the Boeing on flight 24, and on 1538, we're in the Gulf Stream.
MS. COMEY: How can you tell that?
DAVID RODGERS: Because under the aircraft make and model, it has G1159B.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to go now, please, to page 78. We'll look at flight 1433. What is the date of this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: 1433 is December the 11th, 2000.
MS. COMEY: How can you tell it's December 11, 2000?
DAVID RODGERS: Well, the first column has 11, and if we go up a few rows higher, you're going to see December, D-E-C, and then at the top of the page, you'll see 2000.
MS. COMEY: Where were you flying from and where were you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: Palm Beach, Florida, to Teterboro, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Was Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And then were two other passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was one of them named Virginia?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is that the name included in this entry for this flight, just the first name?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, just the first name.
MS. COMEY: Who is Virginia?
DAVID RODGERS: That was Virginia Roberts.
MS. COMEY: About when do you remember meeting Virginia Roberts?
DAVID RODGERS: On that day.
MS. COMEY: In 2000?
DAVID RODGERS: In 2000.
MS. COMEY: About how many times do you remember Virginia Roberts flying on Jeffrey Epstein's private planes?
DAVID RODGERS: 32 times.
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 113.
MS. COMEY: Mr. Rodgers, do you recognize the person in that photograph?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, that's Virginia Roberts.
MS. COMEY: We can take that down. Thank you, Ms. Drescher.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to go now, staying on page 78, down to flight 1434. What's the date of this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: This is December the 14th, 2000.
MS. COMEY: And again, we're in Government Exhibit 662. Where were you flying from and where were you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: Teterboro, New Jersey, to St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands.
MS. COMEY: What does TIST stand for?
DAVID RODGERS: That's the airport identifier for the St. Thomas airport.
MS. COMEY: When you flew Jeffrey Epstein to that airport, what was your understanding of where he was staying?
DAVID RODGERS: He owned an island that was nearby.
MS. COMEY: Was Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was there also one other passenger?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the very next page, please, page 79. Looking at flight 1444, what was the date of this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: January the 26th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where were you flying from and where were you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: Teterboro, New Jersey, to Palm Beach, Florida.
MS. COMEY: Was Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was there also one other passenger?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And does this entry for this flight have Virginia Roberts' full name?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: May I have a moment, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. COMEY: Thank you.
MS. COMEY: Let's stay on this page now and go down to flight 1445. What's the date of this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: This is January the 29th of 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and where are you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: Palm Beach, Florida, to St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is her full name in this entry?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And is there one other passenger?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the very next flight, please, 1446. What's the date of that?
DAVID RODGERS: This is January the 30th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where were you flying from and where were you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands, to Palm Beach, Florida.
MS. COMEY: Was Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is her full name in this entry?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And was there another passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's turn to the next page, please, page 80. I'll direct you to flight number 1464. What was the date of this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: March the 5th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where were you flying from and where were you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: Palm Beach, Florida, to Stephenville, Canada.
MS. COMEY: Was Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is her full name in this entry?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And was there another passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the very next flight, please. What was the date of that?
DAVID RODGERS: This is March the 6th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Are where are you flying from and where are you flying to?
DAVID RODGERS: Stephenville, Canada, to Paris, France.
MS. COMEY: Was Jeffrey Epstein on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was Ghislaine Maxwell on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Was Virginia Roberts on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: How did you indicate that Virginia Roberts was on that flight in this entry?
DAVID RODGERS: With her initials.
MS. COMEY: Which are?
MS. COMEY: And was there another person on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to go to the very next flight, please. Would you please tell us the date.
DAVID RODGERS: This is March the 8th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where were you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: From Paris, France, to Granada, Spain.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And are there multiple other passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to go to the very next flight, please. What's the date?
DAVID RODGERS: March the 8th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Flying from Granada, Spain, to Tangiers, Morocco.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on it this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on it flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Are there multiple other passengers?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the next flight. What's the date?
DAVID RODGERS: This is March 9th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Tangier, Morocco, to Luton, England.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And is there one other passenger?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the very next flight, what's the date of that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: March the 11th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Luton, England, to Bangor, Maine.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And is there one other passenger?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the very next flight on this page, please.
DAVID RODGERS: That's March the 11th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Bangor, Maine, to Teterboro, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And is there one other passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Before we leave this page, up at entry 1466, the March 8th, 2001, is there an entry for one female?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: What does that mean?
DAVID RODGERS: There was one female on board that we didn't know her name.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the next page, please, page 81. I'd like to go to flight 1478. What's the date of this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: This is March the 27th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where were you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Palm Beach, Florida, to Teterboro, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And are there multiple other passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: There is an entry that says two females. What does that mean?
DAVID RODGERS: There were two females on board that we didn't know their names.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the very next flight, please. Would you tell us the date?
DAVID RODGERS: This is March the 29th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Teterboro, New Jersey, to Santa Fe, New Mexico.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And are there other multiple passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the very next entry, please. Would you tell us the date?
DAVID RODGERS: March 31st, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Santa Fe, New Mexico, to Palm Beach, Florida.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Jane a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And is her full name included in this entry?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And are there other passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go now to page 82, please. Up at the top or close to the top, I'd like to do entry 1488, please. Would you tell us the date of that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: April the 9th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Palm Beach, Florida, to Atlantic City, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Are there other passengers on this flight, as well?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the next flight. What's the date of that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: April 9th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Atlantic City, New Jersey, to Teterboro, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And are there multiple other passengers?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the very next flight, please. What's the date?
DAVID RODGERS: This is April the 11th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Teterboro, New Jersey, to St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Are there multiple other passengers?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the very next flight, please. What's the date?
DAVID RODGERS: It's April the 16th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands, to Palm Beach, Florida.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And are there multiple other passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to jump down on this page now, please, to flight 1501 near the bottom. What's the date of that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: This is May the 3rd, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: From Addison, Texas, to San Antonio, Texas.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Are there any other passengers on this flight?
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the very next flight, please. What's the date?
DAVID RODGERS: May the 5th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: San Antonio, Texas, to Palm Beach, Florida.
MS. COMEY: Who are the only two passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Jeffrey Epstein and Virginia Roberts.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the next page, please, down to flight 1506 near the middle of the page. Would you tell us the date of this flight, please?
DAVID RODGERS: This is May the 14th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands, to Teterboro, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Are there multiple other passengers?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And is one of those entries one female?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: What does that mean?
DAVID RODGERS: There was a female on board that we don't know their name.
MS. COMEY: Let's turn to the next page, please, page 84. I'd like to look at flight 1510. Would you please tell us the date of that flight.
DAVID RODGERS: This is June the 3rd, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Palm Beach, Florida, to St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And is there another passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go now to the very next flight. Would you tell us the date.
DAVID RODGERS: This is June the 5th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands, to Teterboro, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And is there one other passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go down to flight 1525, please, down at the bottom of this same page. What is the date of this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: This is July the 8th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Palm Beach, Florida, to Teterboro, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And are there multiple other passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Let's go to the very next flight, please. What's the date?
DAVID RODGERS: It's July the 11th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Teterboro, New Jersey, to Cahokia, Illinois.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And is there one other passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: I'd like to go to the next page, please. Let's go to flight 1528. What's the date of that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: This is July the 16th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: Santa Fe, New Mexico, to Teterboro, New Jersey.
MS. COMEY: Is Jeffrey Epstein a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Ghislaine Maxwell a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is Virginia Roberts a passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Is there one other passenger on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Finally, let's go, please, to flight 1531 on the same page. What's the date?
DAVID RODGERS: July the 28th, 2001.
MS. COMEY: Where are you flying from and to?
DAVID RODGERS: St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands, to Palm Beach, Florida.
MS. COMEY: Who are the only two passengers on this flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Jeffrey Epstein, Virginia Roberts.
MS. COMEY: May I have a moment, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, at this time, I would ask that the jurors please be directed to turn to Government Exhibit 14.
JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Everdell, GX14.
MS. COMEY: Which is in evidence.
MR. EVERDELL: One moment, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a second, members of the jury.
MR. EVERDELL: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may turn in the large binder to GX14, please.
MS. COMEY: I would just ask that the jurors direct their attention to the child's name entry, and then the date of birth entry.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. COMEY: No further questions, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. Mr. Everdell.
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I have a binder for the witness and for the Court.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
(Continued on next page)
MR. EVERDELL: May I inquire, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may, Mr. Everdell.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Good afternoon, Mr. Rodgers.
DAVID RODGERS: Good afternoon.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Rodgers, you testified that you started working as a pilot for Jeffrey Epstein about 1991; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And when you were hired, you then hired your friend who I think you'd been working with, Larry Visoski?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So you started together roughly?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And when you started in '91, you were the chief pilot and Larry Visoski was the co-captain?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you continued -- sorry, that changed, I think, in about, what was it, 2004-ish?
DAVID RODGERS: 2004, end of 2004.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And at that point, Larry Visoski became the chief pilot and you became the co-captain, is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you continued to work for Mr. Epstein as his co-captain until 2019?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So you were a pilot for Jeffrey Epstein for almost 30 years, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Twenty-eight for him.
MR. EVERDELL: Twenty-eight.
DAVID RODGERS: Right.
MR. EVERDELL: And in that time, you flew a number of different planes for him, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You mentioned the Hawker Siddeley, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And I think Mr. Epstein had that from roughly 1991 to '94; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct. End of '94. December of '94 we got rid of it.
MR. EVERDELL: He sold it in the end of '94? He sold it in the end of 1994?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, December of '94 it was sold.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And at that point he replaced the Hawker with a Gulfstream 2B, is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So that was roughly December of '94 when he got the Gulfstream?
DAVID RODGERS: No, we purchased the Gulfstream on February 2nd, 1994.
MR. EVERDELL: Oh, I see. So there was a bit of an overlap between the Hawker and the Gulfstream?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes. But we didn't start flying the Gulfstream until August of that year, because we had it in for paint and interior, so there was a lot of work to do to the aircraft.
MR. EVERDELL: Understood. And you mentioned that he also at some point later bought a Boeing 727, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That's a big aircraft, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's a big aircraft.
MR. EVERDELL: That's like a jetliner, right?
DAVID RODGERS: It is.
MR. EVERDELL: And he bought that sometime around 2001; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, in January of 2001.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And I think you mentioned there were some other planes you flew as well. There was a smaller Cessna, for example?
DAVID RODGERS: There was a smaller Cessna that we had.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And was that mainly for flights to the ranch?
DAVID RODGERS: We used it at the ranch, yes, a little bit, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: There was a landing --
DAVID RODGERS: It wasn't the only mission, but it was in Palm Beach, Florida a lot also. It sort of varied between Palm Beach and the ranch, and I think one time it may have gone to St. Thomas.
MR. EVERDELL: Sure. Okay. But from about 1994, after he sold the Hawker, through about 2001, when he bought the Boeing, you flew primarily the Gulfstream 2B?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And then from 2001 up through the mid 2000s, let's call it 2004 for convenience, you were flying primarily both the Gulfstream and the Boeing?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes. We flew the Boeing more, but -- but we did fly both of them.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So during that same time period, from 1994 to 2004, you flew numerous flights for Mr. Epstein?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: We saw on your flight log that we just looked, at the flights for even one aircraft numbered in the thousands, isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Fair to say you flew over 1,000 flights, well over 1,000 flights for Mr. Epstein?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And Mr. Epstein would frequently have other passengers on these flights, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And many of these passengers were female; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, when the flights were getting ready to taxi and take off, you were usually in the cockpit, right, getting the flight ready?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you would be in the cockpit generally when the passengers arrived in the plane, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Say that again.
MR. EVERDELL: You would usually be up in the cockpit getting the plane ready when the passengers arrived for their flights?
DAVID RODGERS: One pilot would usually be in the cockpit, and one would be in the baggage compartment loading luggage.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Well, so if you were in the baggage compartment loading luggage, you'd have the chance to see some of the passengers, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You might not greet them or meet them, but you'd see them with your eyes?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And even if you were in the cockpit, if you were the pilot that was in the cockpit, the door sometimes was open during the pre-flight preparations?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, the door is going to be open until the pilot in the back gets through loading the luggage, walks through the compartment, and then the door would be closed.
MR. EVERDELL: And that's generally the time when the passengers are going to be entering the plane, right?
DAVID RODGERS: No, the passengers are already on the plane.
MR. EVERDELL: Sorry. Let me be clear. Until the time when the luggage compartment is fully loaded, I think you testified that the cockpit door is usually open?
DAVID RODGERS: Yeah, it's open.
MR. EVERDELL: So if you're in the cockpit at that time, you can look into the passenger section?
DAVID RODGERS: Yeah.
MR. EVERDELL: And you can see the passengers boarding the plane if you're looking in that direction?
DAVID RODGERS: You could.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And you did that on occasion, right?
DAVID RODGERS: It's possible, yeah.
MR. EVERDELL: I think there were also times when Mr. Epstein would introduce some of the passengers to you?
DAVID RODGERS: He would sometimes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Maybe if there was a special guest, he might come introduce them to you in the cockpit so they could see the cockpit?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And you might have some chitchat with them there, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. And there were also times too when the plane and the passengers had to clear customs, and the pilots and the passengers had to exit the plane, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: That would happen on international flights, for example?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: It would also happen when you're leaving St. Thomas too, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, when we -- it would depend. If we were pre-clearing customs at St. Thomas, yes, we would taxi over to the customs area, have to take everything off the airplane and clear customs there.
MR. EVERDELL: Because even though that's the U.S. Virgin Islands, it's part of the United States, there is a customs clearance you have to do when departing St. Thomas, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct. You could pre-clear. And then if you pre-clear there, we don't have to see customs wherever we're going. However, if we don't pre-clear there, then we have to see customs when we land in the United States.
MR. EVERDELL: Fair enough. But I guess my point is at any time when you're clearing customs and you've exited the plane with the passengers, you have the chance to see them there too?
DAVID RODGERS: Oh, sure.
MR. EVERDELL: Right?
DAVID RODGERS: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Now, so I think there were several ways you could have seen some of the passengers on the flights?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And over the years, I think you said you saw a lot of female passengers on Epstein's planes, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you saw lots of women who were in their early twenties; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But you never saw a female passenger who you thought was under the age of 18, did you?
MR. EVERDELL: In fact, you never saw any female on any of the planes who looked younger to you than 19 or 20; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Let me back up and say that there were -- there could have been some females under 18, but they were with their parents.
MR. EVERDELL: Fair enough. Occasionally, you'd have younger females traveling with their parents, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Or maybe they were traveling with a nanny?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But apart from those instances where a younger female is traveling with their parents or a nanny, you didn't see any females on the plane under the age of, say, 18 or 19?
MR. EVERDELL: So fair to say in the thousand-plus flights that you flew for Epstein from '94 to 2004, you never once saw any female on the plane who looked under the age of 18 or 19, right?
MR. EVERDELL: And, in fact, in the many flights you piloted after 2004, you never once saw any female on the planes who looked under the age of 18 or 19, apart from the ones traveling with their family?
MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Overruled.
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And that includes, doesn't it, the woman that you referred to or that we have been referring to as "Jane" in your direct exam; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you do recall meeting Jane, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I think your recollection, isn't it, was that she appeared to you to be at least 18 years old when you met her?
DAVID RODGERS: It did.
MR. EVERDELL: And it also includes the woman we've been talking about, Virginia Roberts, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She was mentioned in your direct testimony?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And your recollection was that Virginia Roberts appeared to be at least 18 or 19 when you saw her on the plane, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. Now, I know you don't know exactly how old they were, right, you weren't checking their IDs?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But when you saw those two people, Jane and Virginia Roberts, you believed that they looked 18 or over when you met them, right?
DAVID RODGERS: I did.
MR. EVERDELL: So, Mr. Rodgers, related question or, I guess, a separate question: In those more than 1,000 flights that you flew for Mr. Epstein during that time period of '94 to 2004, you also never saw any kind of sexual activity occurring on the planes, isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw anyone engaging in sex acts with underage girls, for example, did you?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct, I did not.
MR. EVERDELL: In fact, you never saw anyone engaging in sex acts with any of the women on the flights, period, right?
MR. EVERDELL: All right. Now, you did testify that when you flew the planes, both the Gulfstream and the Boeing, the cockpit doors were closed?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And so if they are closed, you can't necessarily see what's happening in the passenger section of the plane; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's right.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. But you were never instructed by Jeffrey Epstein or anyone else, for that matter, that you were not allowed to ever leave the cockpit during flight, were you?
MR. EVERDELL: He never told you, for example, You have to stay in the cockpit; you cannot leave, David Rodgers?
DAVID RODGERS: No, he never said that.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And he never told you and nor did anybody else that you could never mingle with the passengers on the flight, did he?
DAVID RODGERS: That he could never what?
MR. EVERDELL: That you could never mingle or meet the passengers on the flight?
JUDGE NATHAN: If we could just make sure the question finishes before the answers.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm sorry.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, I'll try to be clearer too when I end my question.
MR. EVERDELL: You were never told you couldn't mingle with the other passengers?
DAVID RODGERS: No, never told that.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. In fact, you weren't given any rules whatsoever about what you could and couldn't do with the passengers, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you were never given any rules whatsoever about how you could interact with the other pilots and the other staff of Mr. Epstein, isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you did, every once in a while on some of these flights, leave the cockpit to go to the rest room, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Very few.
MR. EVERDELL: Very few.
DAVID RODGERS: Usually they were Atlantic crossings going to Europe.
MR. EVERDELL: I see. Well, if you did, then on the -- as I you understand it, on the Gulfstream, the bathroom is all the way in the back of the plane, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So if you wanted to use the rest room, you'd have to leave the cockpit and walk all the way through the plane to get to the rest room in the back of the plane, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Right.
MR. EVERDELL: And on the occasions when you did use the rest room on the Gulfstream, you never saw anything of a sexual nature going on in the passenger cabin, right?
DAVID RODGERS: No, I did not.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Did you ever leave the cabin -- or, sorry, the cockpit to get coffee?
DAVID RODGERS: No, we had our own coffee up in that area that we could make.
MR. EVERDELL: That was on the Gulfstream, I think, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But on the Boeing, there was a galley kitchen in the middle of the plane, right?
DAVID RODGERS: There was. But also we had our own coffeemaker up front in the Boeing. But, yes, there was one in the galley.
MR. EVERDELL: Did you ever go get coffee from the galley kitchen in the middle of the plane?
DAVID RODGERS: Not that I recall.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. All right. Well, let me ask you this question: After a flight lands on either the Gulfstream or the Boeing, it's generally the pilot's responsibility to help straighten up the cabin after flight; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And when you did that, you never saw anything in any of these cabins like clothes all about the cabin, right?
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw any sex toys in the cabin; correct?
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw anything like used condoms?
MR. EVERDELL: So you never saw anything that gave you the impression that any kind of sexual activity was occurring on the flights during the in-flight portion of the flight where you couldn't see anything?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct, I did not.
MR. EVERDELL: And sitting here today, based on what you observed, you have no reason to believe that Epstein or anyone else was engaging in sexual activity with underage girls or any women, for that matter, on the flights you piloted, isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Now, I want to ask you some questions about how the flights were scheduled and set up. Okay?
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: I think you were asked a few questions about this on your direct exam, right? So before a flight was scheduled, you and Larry Visoski would need to be alerted ahead of time that Epstein needed to fly somewhere, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you'd usually get about a few days' notice, maybe a day's notice, if it's short notice; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And there were several different people who would speak to you about scheduling flights, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I think you mentioned on your direct that you would occasionally speak to Mr. Epstein himself to schedule flights or he would let you know a flight was happening, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, he would let us know.
MR. EVERDELL: If he was leaving the plane on one particular time and he knew he was going to go somewhere, say, in a day or two, he would mention to you we're going to fly to so-and-so destination two days from now?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you said you would occasionally speak to Ghislaine as well about flights, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But during the time period of the 1990s, it was usually the case that you were speaking to Epstein's secretary in New York about scheduling flights, isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, more often than not.
MR. EVERDELL: And in the '90s, I think you mentioned you didn't have a cell phone, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Early '90s we did not.
MR. EVERDELL: Before the days of cell phones.
DAVID RODGERS: Right.
MR. EVERDELL: Because we're talking 20 years ago at this point, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yeah, when we first were there, we had beepers.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay.
DAVID RODGERS: And cell phones -- I'm guessing it was late '90s before we had cell phones.
MR. EVERDELL: Right. So early '90s was before anybody really carried a cell phone as a matter of course?
DAVID RODGERS: Yeah.
MR. EVERDELL: So you did have beepers though?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: If there was a flight needed to be scheduled, typically you and Larry Visoski would get a page on your beeper, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You would call back Epstein's office usually, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Because more often than not, that's where the call was coming from?
DAVID RODGERS: Right.
MR. EVERDELL: And you would speak to Epstein's secretary or his assistant about the flight, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, on the occasions that you did speak to Ghislaine about scheduling a flight, that was because she was going to be traveling on that flight; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So if she wasn't traveling on the flight, you typically would coordinate with someone else, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: One of Epstein's secretaries or something like that?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So that was the 1990s I think we were just discussing; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I want to fast forward to the 2000s. Okay. In the 2000s, you spoke to some different people about scheduling flights, isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes. He had a different secretary. Yes, it would be different people, but the same position.
MR. EVERDELL: Right. Same position, but different people started filling these positions, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall a person named Lesley Groff?
DAVID RODGERS: Say again?
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall someone named Lesley Groff?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. She was Epstein's secretary in the 2000s, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And do you recall speaking to her about scheduling flights on occasion?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But I think the person you spoke to most often about scheduling flights in the 2000s was Sarah Kellen, isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: For me, not that much.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Well, did you speak to Sarah Kellen about scheduling flights?
DAVID RODGERS: I'm sure we have; but at that point in time, Larry -- she's probably directing everything to Larry instead of me.
MR. EVERDELL: So let's make a distinction here. It's because the call would be handled by Larry at that point as chief pilot, not yourself?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I see. Okay. But you do recall meeting someone named Sarah Kellen around the early 2000s, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And I think the first time you recall meeting Sarah Kellen was sometime in late 2001; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct, September 2001.
MR. EVERDELL: Right. I think September of 2001, if we looked at your flight logs, is the first time she appears on one of your flights, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Now, I think it's true that Sarah Kellen started filling the role of one of Epstein's assistants at that time, isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: I feel like Sarah was more of Ghislaine's assistant, but actually she was probably both.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, I think you said that she may have started as Ghislaine's assistant, but at some point she became Epstein's assistant?
DAVID RODGERS: That's true. That's true.
MR. EVERDELL: In fact, I think you actually said at one point that you considered her to be Epstein's primary assistant as of late 2001, isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: 2001, that who was, Sarah?
MR. EVERDELL: Sarah is the question. That you considered Sarah Kellen to be Epstein's primary assistant as of late 2001?
DAVID RODGERS: I am not sure if she was primary or not at that point.
MR. EVERDELL: Let me see if I can show you something that may refresh your recollection.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: I put a binder by your feet. If you could pick that up, sir. And I want you to turn to tab number 4. And this is going to be document 3523-004 at page 2.
MR. EVERDELL: And if we can maybe put that on the screen for just the Court, the deputy, and that's it. I think the government has their copy.
JUDGE NATHAN: I have it on paper.
MR. EVERDELL: So, Mr. Rodgers, if you just take a look at that. I'm going to direct your attention specifically to the second full paragraph. It's towards the end, but why don't you read that whole paragraph. It's right in the middle of the page.
JUDGE NATHAN: Read to himself.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, read to yourself. I'm sorry.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Rodgers, I'll ask you, does reading that refresh your recollection that it was your impression that Sarah Kellen took over as Epstein's primary assistant in the late 2000s -- sorry, in late 2001?
DAVID RODGERS: I didn't see Sarah's name mentioned in here.
MR. EVERDELL: Are you referring to 35 -- it's tab 4.
JUDGE NATHAN: I think -- it wasn't clear what page you were directing to.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm sorry. I direct you to page 2 of 3, if that wasn't clear, sir.
DAVID RODGERS: I didn't hear that. Page 2?
MR. EVERDELL: I'm sorry, why don't we try this again. If you could refer to page 2.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: It's the second full paragraph. Just read that paragraph.
DAVID RODGERS: I see it. According to this, it's been a long time ago.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, it is, sir, yes.
DAVID RODGERS: I stand corrected.
MR. EVERDELL: Does that refresh your recollection that it was your impression that Sarah Kellen took over as Epstein's primary assistant in late 2001?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Thank you. You can put that away for now, Mr. Rodgers.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: So, I'm sorry, I'll wait till you're ready.
DAVID RODGERS: Yeah, sure.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So then in the 2000s, starting in late 2001, I guess Larry Visoski would often speak to Sarah Kellen about scheduling flights; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She was the one who would arrange the flight departures generally?
DAVID RODGERS: Sarah?
MR. EVERDELL: Sarah.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she was the one who arranged the luggage transfers back -- to and from the residences in your houses?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, most likely.
MR. EVERDELL: And she was the one who arranged for a driver to pick you up at the airport?
DAVID RODGERS: No, we had our own. We would take care of our own transportation, for the pilots we did.
MR. EVERDELL: I see. Okay. And by that point in the 2000s, you and Mr. Visoski had cell phones, right? Had cell phones at that point, not beepers?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So you were communicating about flights usually through your cell phones, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'm going to ask again everybody, please, you're talking on top of each other a little bit. It's challenging for the court reporter. So question finishes, then answer; answer finishes, then question. Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: I will be mindful, your Honor. Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: So you recall that you had Sarah Kellen's cell phone number in your own phone, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So you spoke to her often enough to have that programmed in your phone, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. You don't happen to remember her phone number off the top of your head, do you?
DAVID RODGERS: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Let me just refresh -- see if something refreshes your recollection. If you can pick up your binder again and again flip to the fourth tab and you turn to the third page.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: And if you look in the -- sort of the middle of that page, just take a look at that and see if that refreshes your recollection about what Sarah Kellen's phone number was.
DAVID RODGERS: It really does -- I mean I see the number, but I don't recall that number.
MR. EVERDELL: Fair enough. You can put that away. All right. Let's move on to a different topic, Mr. Rodgers. So regardless of who you were speaking to about scheduling a flight, when you were told that Epstein needed to fly somewhere, you would need to be given certain information about -- to be able to plan the flight appropriately, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Did you say something about meals?
MR. EVERDELL: Not meals. You would need to be given some information about the flight in order to plan it, like, for example, the destination?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you'd need to be given the time of departure, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And but you wouldn't necessarily be told who was going to be on the flight, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I think you mentioned that on your direct exam, right, the names of the passengers wasn't one of these sort of critical pieces of information for you to know, right?
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And, in fact, most of the time you didn't ever meet the passengers, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Other than we would know who they were.
MR. EVERDELL: Sure. If you had passengers, for example, who flew often, you would get to know those people, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Right.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. But a lot of times you were just at some point given some names of the passengers, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you wouldn't necessarily be given all of their names, right?
MR. EVERDELL: Sometimes you'd be given some of the names and sometimes you'd be given all, but it was a mix, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And there's no requirement under airline regulations that requires you to gather the names of the passengers, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I think you only really need the names if you're flying internationally, right, and you have to clear customs and immigration?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So even if you weren't told all the names of the passengers, I think you mentioned on your direct exam that you did try to keep track of how many people were on the plane, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Because, among other things, the pilots need to fill out passenger manifests for each flight, right?
DAVID RODGERS: We're not required to fill out a -- you mean -- by FAA you mean?
MR. EVERDELL: I don't mean -- I'll rephrase. It was your practice to fill out passenger manifests for each flight; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And the manifest as you mentioned contains a list of passenger names, among other things, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Now, we looked at a lot of entries in what you referred to as your pilot logbook; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That was Government's Exhibit 662. We looked at a lot of entries on your logbook; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's right.
MR. EVERDELL: That is not a passenger manifest, right?
DAVID RODGERS: No, it is not.
MR. EVERDELL: You had a practice, I think you described this, of taking the manifests and then taking the names of the passengers and entering them in your own personal pilot logbook, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So that's why your logbook has those -- that information in it, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But that's your particular practice; it's not what every pilot does, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Now, you said on direct that if you didn't get all the names of the passengers, which happened from time to time, you would still try to keep track of how many passengers there were?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And if you didn't know their names, you might put in something like "one passenger" or "one PAX" to indicate an unnamed passenger?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And then later you might have put -- or around the same time you might have put "one female" or "one male" to indicate the gender, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But sitting here today, if your logbook entries reflect one male or one female or one passenger, you don't know who that person is who you indicated as that one male, one female, one passenger, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So you would have no way of knowing today what the actual name of that person was on those flights where those are indicated?
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Now, in keeping your logbook and your manifests, obviously if you knew who the person was and you recognized them from before, you would put their names in the manifest, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And your practice, I think, was if you knew the name of the person because they flew a lot, you might just enter their initials in your logbook because it saved space, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So if we see initials in your logbook, that reflects that it's someone who flew several times on Epstein's planes that you recognized, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So, for example, there are numerous examples of the initials SK in the logbook, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Right.
MR. EVERDELL: And do you know what those initials designate?
DAVID RODGERS: Sarah Kellen.
MR. EVERDELL: So Sarah Kellen was a frequent passenger who you would abbreviate with her initials, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And those people -- sorry, I take it back. If someone was a new passenger or someone you hadn't met yet, you would put their full name, if it had been given to you, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Or you would put a first name if that's all you had for them, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Or you'd put down a placeholder like we spoke about, one passenger, one male, one female?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Now, it was sometimes the case, wasn't it, Mr. Rodgers, that Epstein's friends or acquaintances or family members would fly on the plane with him, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And he would take them on his plane if they were -- if he was going the direction they were going, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Effectively giving them a lift on his plane, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, in those cases, if it's not a regular traveler or, say, a family member, you might not know their name, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Say that again?
MR. EVERDELL: In those cases where it's someone who's kind of getting a lift, who -- it might be an acquaintance or friend, you might actually not know that person?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So that's an example, right, of somewhere where you might put one male, one female, one passenger, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. One of these people getting a ride somewhere, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Now, you and, I think, Larry Visoski had your manifests, right, which were separate from the logbook that we looked at, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you sent those manifests periodically to Epstein's office in New York; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: About every month or so, give or take?
DAVID RODGERS: Usually at the end of the month.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. You did not send those manifests to Ghislaine, did you?
DAVID RODGERS: No, I did not.
MR. EVERDELL: And you didn't send your pilot logbook to Ghislaine either, right?
MR. EVERDELL: That was your own personal logbook that you kept yourself, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So you have no reason to believe that Ghislaine was reviewing the manifests and the people who were flying on the flights, right?
MR. EVERDELL: And from your perspective, you have no reason to believe that Ghislaine would have known which passengers were on which flights, if she didn't fly on the flight herself, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. I want to move to a different topic, Mr. Rodgers. I want to ask you about the ownership of the planes, okay?
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: So from 1994 to 2004, you said Mr. Epstein had two primary planes, the Gulfstream and eventually the Boeing, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Those planes were owned by limited liability companies or LLCs, isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: I don't think the first plane -- are we referring to the Gulfstream or the --
MR. EVERDELL: I'm referring to the Gulfstream and the Boeing.
DAVID RODGERS: I think the Gulfstream was not an LLC; I think it was incorporated. And I think that the Boeing was an LLC.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm sorry. Let me rephrase the question. The two aircraft we're talking about, the Boeing and the Gulfstream, were actually owned by companies?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I'll use that general term. Is that correct?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So the companies that owned the planes were controlled by Mr. Epstein, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But the actual owner on paper was a company; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So I think you recall that the Boeing 727 was owned by JEGE, Incorporated, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And the Gulfstream was owned by a company called Hyperion Air, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And I think Epstein also owned a Bell helicopter at some point, didn't he?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you know about when he bought the Bell helicopter?
DAVID RODGERS: I believe it was 2002, maybe November 2002.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. That's a rough estimate?
DAVID RODGERS: That's a rough. I'm not for sure about that.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. But that helicopter was also owned by a company, wasn't it?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That was owned by Air Ghislaine, Inc., isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And I think Mr. Epstein bought another helicopter sometime later from Sikorsky; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And that aircraft or that helicopter was also owned by Air Ghislaine, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. Now, it's your understanding that all of these companies that owned these aircraft were controlled by Mr. Epstein, right?
MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Just a moment.
MS. COMEY: Foundation and calls for hearsay.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll sustain on foundation.
MR. EVERDELL: Let me ask you this, Mr. Rodgers: Before you were hired by Jeffrey Epstein, you worked for a company that sold airplanes; isn't that right?
MR. EVERDELL: No? You didn't work for Glimcher? Is that the name of the company? G-L-I-M-C-H-E-R?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, I worked for that company, but it was a real estate development.
MR. EVERDELL: Oh, I'm sorry. I've got it. Okay. But you do have some awareness of how people buy aircraft and how they own aircraft through companies; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. Now, it is fairly common if someone wants to buy an airplane, to buy it using a company, a corporate entity; isn't that right?
MS. COMEY: Objection.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And if that person owns more than one aircraft, it is also fairly common that they own each plane with a separate company, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And one of the main reasons you do that is because it limits your liability, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So, in other words, it protects that person from being sued, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So, for example, if I owned a plane and, God forbid, there was an accident on the plane and some of the passengers were seriously injured, some of those injured passengers might want to sue me because it's my plane, right?
MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, if I own the plane in my own name, I could be sued personally, right?
MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. Well, I'll ask one more question. In your experience working with aircraft, there's nothing improper about owning an aircraft through a company, is there?
MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. Let's switch gears, Mr. Rodgers. I want to talk a little bit about a few specific flights, all right?
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: You testified on your direct about a place called Interlochen, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you're familiar with that place, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Interlochen hosts an arts camp in the summer; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that camp is for talented musicians and singers and actors and other types of artists, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And those people, those artists, are in high school for this camp, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. And it's pretty well known in the arts community, the Interlochen Arts Camp; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you testified, I believe, that from 1991, when you first started working for Mr. Epstein, to 1998, you flew to Interlochen once a year roughly, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you did that typically in the month of August, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I think you mentioned there may have been one year where you went July 31st, right at the end of July; but other than that, it was August, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And Mr. Epstein, I think you're aware that he had a cabin at Interlochen, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes. I believe it was referred to as a lodge.
MR. EVERDELL: A lodge?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But he had the ability to stay in that lodge if he wanted to, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And he would stay in that lodge typically in the days in August when he went to see the end-of-the-year performances at Interlochen, right?
DAVID RODGERS: I'm not really sure where he stayed once we took him there. I can't be for certain. Somebody else could have been staying there in his lodge.
MR. EVERDELL: Understood. Setting apart where he stayed, he would typically go in August to see the end-of-the-year performances by the campers, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, Interlochen is located in Michigan, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And to get to Interlochen, you have to fly to Traverse City, Michigan, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: That's the closest airport?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Now, I want to take a look at some of these flights in a second. But you recall being asked on direct by the government about the flights to Interlochen, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And I think you were able to say confidently that you took seven flights to Interlochen between 1991 to 1997; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you remember they were in August, except for that one time in July, right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you don't have any independent recollection of these flights, right?
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So the way you were able to be so confident in the number of flights and the timing of the flights is because you were able to review your flight records, your flight logbook, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So you had your memory refreshed by looking at your flight logbook, and that's why you were able to say confidently what you said about the flights for Interlochen, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So it's not as if you have a separate memory for each of those flights; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: No, I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: And that's true of really all the flights we're talking about here; you don't have an independent recollection of each and every one of these flights, right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct, I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: So we're working off your refreshed recollection from your logbook which you've reviewed prior to testifying today?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So let's look first at --
JUDGE NATHAN: Actually, Mr. Everdell, we'll break here. It's our mid-afternoon break time.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Members of the jury, about a 15-minute break. Thank you.
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Rodgers, you may step down for the break. Thank you.
(Witness not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Everyone may be seated. Are there matters to take up before the break?
MS. COMEY: Not from the government, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: Not from the defense, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Let's meet in ten minutes so that you can raise anything if we need to. Thank you.
(Recess)
JUDGE NATHAN: Matters to take up?
MR. EVERDELL: Nothing for the defense.
JUDGE NATHAN: What's your time prediction, Mr. Everdell?
MR. EVERDELL: I still got a little ways to go, your Honor. I'm not quite halfway done.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Comey is looking at me like --
MS. COMEY: I have no problem with that, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. All right. We'll bring in the jury and bring back the witness please.
(Witness present)
(Continued on next page)
(Jury present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Everyone may be seated. Thank you, members of the jury. Mr. Everdell, you may continue with your cross examination. Mr. Rodgers, I remind you, you are under oath. You may inquire.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Welcome back, Mr. Rodgers.
DAVID RODGERS: Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: You were asked a lot of questions by the government on direct examination about a woman that we are referring to as Jane. Do you recall that?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: To be clear, Jane is not her real name, her real first name; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But you do know what her name is, her real name?
JUDGE NATHAN: Without saying it.
MR. EVERDELL: Without saying it?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you say you recall seeing Jane on Epstein's plane; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I don't think you recall having much interaction with her, though; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: I think it was your testimony that you recalled seeing Jane for the first time on Epstein's plane on November 11th of 1996; right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, that is a date -- you don't have an independent recollection of that date in your mind of meeting Jane; correct?
MR. EVERDELL: That date is in your head because you referred to the flight logs; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And as we saw, there is an entry on that date on November 11th, 1996; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that entry shows that there is a first name there, but only a first name; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that first name is the same first name as Jane's true first name; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And that is why you place Jane -- your meeting with Jane on November 11th of 1996; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Because you saw it in your flight log; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But that entry only has the first name that is the same as Jane's true first name; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: It doesn't say Jane's first and last name; right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you were actually interviewed by the FBI several times about the flights you flew for Epstein; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Once, that I recall.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, isn't it true that you were interviewed the first time by the FBI way back in August of 2006; isn't that correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, I recall that.
MR. EVERDELL: That, you were not asked about Jane at that interview?
MR. EVERDELL: Now, the next time you were interviewed, it was by the government, right, meaning the prosecutors were there, as well?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: Please wait until the question is finished and then answer. Go ahead.
MR. EVERDELL: So that interview with the prosecutors was almost 15 years later on February 7th, 2020; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Repeat the question.
MR. EVERDELL: The first time you were interviewed by the prosecutors in this case was roughly almost 15 years after you were interviewed by the FBI; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: That's very close.
MR. EVERDELL: And that first interview with the prosecutors took place on February 7th of 2020; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And some of the prosecutors that are here were at that meeting; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you were there with your attorney?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now the government did ask you about Jane at that interview; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And the government asked you when it was that you first recall meeting Jane; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you told them at that interview that you first recall meeting Jane in around 2000, plus or minus a few years; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: I don't recall.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, if you can pick up your binder that we looked at before, please, if you could go to tab 18, which is 3523-018, and I'm going to refer you to page 8 of that document. If you just read it to yourself. There is a paragraph -- below the bullet point list on that page, there is a paragraph -- where I want you to focus is the last few sentences, but you can read the full paragraph. Let me know when you've read it.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, that's correct, I did say that. But at that time, I hadn't done a lot of research in my logbook.
MR. EVERDELL: Exactly. So, at that time, you were responding from your memory?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: As best you could about when you recalled first meeting Jane; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And you told the government that you best recalled first meeting Jane around the year 2000, give or take a year or two; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes. I was a couple of years off.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, that was before you were shown the flight logs; right? You gave that response before you were shown the flight logs; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And as we saw, the flight logs for the flights in '96, '97, and '98 where there is an indication where someone with Jane's first name appears in the passenger list, those flight logs just show just that, someone with Jane's first name flying on those flights; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: It doesn't say her first and last name?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So your basis for placing your first meeting with Jane on November 11th, 1996, is not based on your memory, it's based on what the flight logs say; right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And the flight logs only refer to someone with the same first name as Jane?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, it is true, isn't it, that there are other people in Epstein's world with that same first name as Jane?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: In fact, you've met people with that same first name who were in Epstein's world; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I believe he had an assistant with that same first name. I tell you what, I'll withdraw the question, I'm going to show you something that I think will help you. In your binder, there is a tab, LV3. These are admitted. This is LV3A and LV3B, which are admitted under seal. Members of the jury, there are folders under your chairs --
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a second. I'll direct the jury.
MR. EVERDELL: Understood, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: So first tell me --
MS. COMEY: No objection, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: So you want the jury to look at LV --
MR. EVERDELL: I would like the witness and the jury to look at LV3A and LV3B, which are already in evidence under seal.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. You may do so, members of the jury, please. It's which binder?
MR. EVERDELL: It's the folder.
JUDGE NATHAN: In the folder, LV3A, LV3B.
MR. EVERDELL: Jurors, I think it's underneath tab 3 for you. So just go to tab 3.
JUDGE NATHAN: You may go to tab 3.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm sorry, your Honor. I'll stop.
JUDGE NATHAN: You were trying to be helpful.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Rodgers, do you see that tab?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And do you see the person in those photos? Yes or no.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I don't want you to tell me that person's name. Understand?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But you do know that person's name; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Without telling us the name, is that Epstein's assistant that had the same first name as Jane's true first name?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And that person you're looking at in the photographs who had the same name, she traveled frequently with Epstein on the planes; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you know if they had a romantic relationship together?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she had a foreign accent, didn't she?
DAVID RODGERS: I'm not sure about that. Pretty good English.
MR. EVERDELL: Her first name is actually spelled the same exact way as Jane's first name; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But she is not Jane; correct?
MR. EVERDELL: You can put that way.
JUDGE NATHAN: Jurors, you can put the folders away.
MR. EVERDELL: I do want to look at some of those flights with Jane that you looked at before. So if we could bring up Government Exhibit 662R, which is redacted, and I'll ask Ms. Drescher to help me, because I think she has the redacted copy. If we can display page 44. So do you see that in front of you, Mr. Rodgers?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: If you look at the flight that's for November 11th of 1996, do you see that flight down at the bottom?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: It's flight number 916?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And it's from Palm Beach to Teterboro; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And the passengers were -- it says in the notes JE, Sophie and friend, Jeff Shantz (ph.) and family, four, Eva, child and nanny. Then it says Jane's true first name; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And it says Russ --
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So JE, we said, was Epstein; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Sophie is Sophie Biddle (ph.), is it not?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She was one of Epstein's professional masseuses; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: She traveled with him from time to time on the planes?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she was in her late 20s or early 30s at the time, wasn't she?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Jeff Shantz was Epstein's attorney; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And Eva is Eva Dubin; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She was Epstein's former girlfriend, wasn't she?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And before she was Eva Dubin, she was Eva Anderson?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Eva Anderson later married Glenn Dubin and became Eva Dubin; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Are you aware that Glenn Dubin is a billionaire hedge fund manager?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And he was one of Epstein's clients; right?
DAVID RODGERS: I'm not sure about that.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Just to round it out, Russ Kippus (ph.), he was another pilot; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: He would sometimes fill in when one of the other pilots couldn't do it?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, again, we'll look back at the name, which is Jane's true first name; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Just to be clear, that's just her first name, not her last name; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So, bottom line is, you don't know, sitting here today, whether Jane was actually on that flight; right?
DAVID RODGERS: I've only flown two persons with that name, and the second person I saw a picture of I met in September of 2003. So it couldn't have been her.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. But there were potentially lots of people in Epstein's world who had that same first name that you never met; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Well, there could be.
MR. EVERDELL: You could have been given the name of Jane's true first name as a passenger and never met that person; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Say that again.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, when you're filling out the manifest, you could have been given the names of some of the passengers; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you may have been given that first name, that's Jane's true first name; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you might not have met the person on the flight who was actually going by Jane's true first name; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Possibly.
MR. EVERDELL: So it's possible that there are other people who go by that same first name who you never met who could have flown on Epstein's plane; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So sitting here today, we can't say that the one you know of as Jane was actually on this flight; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Just have the first name. That's it.
MR. EVERDELL: So now, let's go to page 48. I'm going to look at the flight that's on May 9th, which is flight 979. Do you see that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That's a flight from Teterboro to Santa Fe, you said; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And the passengers there are JE, GM, and Jane's true first name?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So we should say JE is Jeffrey Epstein; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: GM, you said, was Ghislaine Maxwell; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And this flight only lists Jane's true first name, not her last name; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Let's go to page 55. Let's look at the flight that is the flight on May 3rd, 1998. It's down at the bottom of the page, flight 1105. Do you see that?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That is a flight from Palm Beach to Teterboro; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And the passengers that are listed there are JE, GM, ET, then Jane's true first name, then Glenn, Eva, Selena, Jordan, nanny, Gwendolyn, and Beck; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So we know who JE and GM are; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: ET is Emmy Taylor, that was Ghislaine's assistant?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Skipping over the name that's Jane's name, Glenn and Eva are Glenn and Eva Dubin; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Selena and Jordan are their children; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you know who Gwendolyn Beck is?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Who is she?
DAVID RODGERS: She was a friend of Jeffrey's.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, going back to the name we skipped, Jane's true first name, again, that is just her first name, not her last name; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So those three flights we just looked at are the only flights in the 1990s where a passenger with Jane's true first name is listed on your flight log; isn't that correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And we'll look at one last flight, which is at page 81. We'll look at the flight number 1480 on March 31st of 2001. Do you see that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That is a flight from Santa Fe to Palm Beach; yes?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And the passengers listed there are JE, GM, AP, Virginia Roberts, and then Jane's true first and last name this time; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And then Henry Drecky (ph.) and Marvin Minsky; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: We won't go over JE and GM. AP is Adam Perry Lang; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: He was one of Epstein's chefs?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: He was a chef at the time?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And Virginia Roberts, we discussed, is someone you recall flying on the flights; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Your recollection is, at the time, she was at least 18 or 19 when she was flying; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you're not sure what her role was with Epstein; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you know who Henry Drecky and Marvin Minsky are?
DAVID RODGERS: I know they were friends of Jeffrey.
MR. EVERDELL: You're aware Henry Drecky taught at Yale Medical School?
MR. EVERDELL: You're aware that Marvin Minsky taught at MIT?
MR. EVERDELL: Well, jumping back to the name that's Jane's true first name -- I'm sorry. One other thing I want to say about AP. There was somebody else who had the initials AP that was in Jeffrey's world; isn't that right? Was there a decorator named Alberto Pinto?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So he also could go by the initials -- or the initials AP on your logs; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And one other question about Emmy Taylor, who you saw as ET, she was from England; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So she had a British accent; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, looking at that entry at the name of Jane's true first and last name, that is the only time in your flight logs where Jane's true first and last name appears on your flight logs; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But you don't specifically recall this flight; right?
MR. EVERDELL: It's just what we see on the flight log; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: A few other questions about Jane. There are no flights that you're aware of on your flight log where anyone with Jane's full name or just her first name and Mark Epstein are on the flights together; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Say that again.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, we looked at the four flights where we think either Jane's first name appears or her first and last name appear; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: In the 1990s, there were four of them; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And none of those flights had Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, on the flights; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: I don't know.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, we just looked at the passenger list for those four flights and we didn't see Mark Epstein's names on those flights; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You're not aware of any other flight where someone with Jane's first name or first and last name ever flew with Mark Epstein; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And there are no flights with Jane in 1994, for example?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: The first one we saw was '96?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And there are no flights with Jane in '95 either?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you mentioned that, occasionally, you write one female for someone you don't know who happens to be a female passenger; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But sitting here today, you can't say that any one of those instances where you wrote "one female" was actually Jane flying on that flight; right?
DAVID RODGERS: It could have been.
MR. EVERDELL: Could have been, but you don't know one way or the other; right?
DAVID RODGERS: It's a possibility.
MR. EVERDELL: Could have been any number of people, though; correct? Okay. Now, you also were shown I think an instance in your flight logs where the flight number jumped from flight 818 to flight 821. Do you remember that?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you had said, well, sometimes you weren't flying and since this was your personal logbook, you wouldn't have recorded the other flights that were missing; right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But we have no information then about who may have been on those flights or where those flights went; right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So sitting here today, you can't say one way or the other whether, for example, Jane was on any of those missing flights; right?
DAVID RODGERS: I cannot.
MR. EVERDELL: There is just no information one way or the other; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Let's look at just a few different flights. I want to talk to you just a little bit about the Interlochen flights. Okay?
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Let's look first at the same exhibit, but let's look at page 2.
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: And you see the flight there on August 13th, which is flight 16, I believe; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That is -- sorry. We'll go back to the flight before that. That's the flight 15 from Teterboro to Columbus; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Okay, Teterboro to Columbus, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And the passengers on that flight are Jeffrey and one PAX; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So that's an unknown passenger?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And Columbus, Ohio is where Les Wexner lives?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And he's the billionaire owner of The Limited; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: It's a clothing company?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Was he one of Jeffrey Epstein's clients?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And Epstein had a home in Columbus, Ohio, near Mr. Wexner, didn't he?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So, generally, trips to Columbus, Ohio is for when Mr. Epstein is visiting Mr. Wexner or to visit?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You see the next flight below that is from Columbus to TBC; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that's Traverse City, Michigan, where Interlochen is; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So the passengers on that flight is Jeffrey plus 2 PAX; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So there were two unidentified passengers on that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And then you see the next two flights are from Traverse City to CPS, and CPS back to Traverse City. What's going on there?
DAVID RODGERS: So we departed -- we left Traverse City to go to Cahokia, Illinois to have some work done on the airplane. If I recall, I think we were either putting carpet in -- I believe it was carpet. I couldn't be certain about that.
MR. EVERDELL: You flew back to Traverse City; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes. So we had no passengers. In fact, it says there relocate for the N number change. That's what we want for, was for the N number change.
MR. EVERDELL: Got it.
DAVID RODGERS: And you'll notice there, from there on down, we have a different N number, registration number, on the same aircraft.
MR. EVERDELL: You got a different tail number at that point?
DAVID RODGERS: Tail number.
MR. EVERDELL: So when you got back to Traverse City, there is a flight back to Teterboro on August 18th; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And the passengers there are Jeffrey plus two PAX; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Ghislaine is not listed on any of those flights; right?
MR. EVERDELL: Just two unnamed people, besides Mr. Epstein?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Let's look at one more on page 11. Let's look at the flights on July 31st, which is flight number 178. Do you see that one?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That's a flight from Teterboro to Traverse City; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And the people on those flights, the Teterboro to Traverse City and the next one back, Traverse City to POU, there is a number of people there. One of them is James Murphy. Do you see that name?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: He was Epstein's traveling yoga instructor, wasn't he?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And he was male; right?
DAVID RODGERS: He was what?
MR. EVERDELL: Male.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. Itzhak Perlman is on some of those flights?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: He's a famous violinist; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Let's jump to 29. And I want to look at the flights on August 14th through August 20th. So we're going to start with the one on that's flight 569. Do you see that?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So, let's pull that up. So you see the first flight is from PBI to MDW; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That's Palm Beach to Chicago Midway Airport?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: The passengers are Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: The next flight on the same day is from Midway, Chicago to Columbus, Ohio?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That is also Epstein and Maxwell; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Then two days later, there is a flight from Columbus back to Midway; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And that is Jeffrey Epstein and Sophie Biddle, who we spoke about before?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And then the same day, there is a flight from Midway to ASE, that's Aspen Airport; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that is Jeffrey Epstein, Sophie Biddle, and someone named Frances Jardine (ph.); right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you remember who Frances Jardine was?
DAVID RODGERS: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you remember her as a girlfriend of Epstein's?
DAVID RODGERS: I don't.
MR. EVERDELL: Safe to say that Ghislaine is not on that flight; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct, she's not.
MR. EVERDELL: So two days after that on the 18th, the flight goes back from Aspen to Traverse City?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That is Epstein, Biddle, and Jardine?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Aspen is where Wexner has a house?
DAVID RODGERS: It is.
MR. EVERDELL: Would Epstein use that house from time to time?
DAVID RODGERS: I know he would visit it. I don't know if he would use it.
MR. EVERDELL: And he would bring guests occasionally with him?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So on the flight on the 18th going from Aspen to Traverse City, Maxwell is not on that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And Traverse City is where Interlochen is; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Then on the 20th, there is a flight from Traverse City to Teterboro in New Jersey; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That's two days later after the flight from Aspen to Traverse City?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And on that flight on the 20th, the passengers are Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, and someone named Dawn DeVitto; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Frances Jardine is not on that flight; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that is the first flight that we see Ghislaine Maxwell appear after she dropped off on the flight on the 14th of August; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And just to round it out, dawn DeVitto, that's another traveling masseuse; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: I don't think she was a masseuse. I believe -- I thought she was yoga.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm sorry. She was a yoga instructor; right?
DAVID RODGERS: I think so.
MR. EVERDELL: She was in her late 20s, early 30s, as well?
DAVID RODGERS: Oh, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she was a professional?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Some questions about the flights to Palm Beach. I'm not going to ask you, I think, about particular ones, but you were based in Palm Beach; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That was your home?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes. Well, I moved -- not the whole time. I moved there in 1994.
MR. EVERDELL: As part of your employment, you moved there; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Well, no. When I first met Jeffrey, I lived in Columbus or near Columbus, Ohio, and I lived there for a couple of years, and then I moved to Manhattan for a year, and then I moved to West Palm Beach in 1994.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, safe to say that Epstein was not based in Palm Beach; correct? I mean, he had a residence in New York; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, he had a residence in both places.
MR. EVERDELL: But the Palm Beach residence was mainly for weekend travel and that sort of thing?
DAVID RODGERS: We primarily went there on the weekend.
MR. EVERDELL: So you took a lot of flights to Teterboro to Palm Beach and back again; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Typically, if you're going to do weekend travel, you're leaving on a Thursday or Friday and you come back on, say, a Sunday; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And Ghislaine Maxwell wasn't always with Mr. Epstein when you went to Palm Beach; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Let's take a look at one flight. If we can pull back up Government Exhibit 662R at page 92. I want you to take a look at the flight on May 4th, 2002. That is down at the bottom, flight 92. Do you see that?
DAVID RODGERS: What's the flight number?
MR. EVERDELL: Flight 92.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, I see that.
MR. EVERDELL: That is a flight from JFK to Palm Beach?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: The passengers on that flight were Jeffrey Epstein and a woman named Shelly Lewis?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Shelly Lewis was someone Epstein was romantically involved with in 2002; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she had a British accent, didn't she?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: In fact, Epstein flew around with a lot of women who had foreign accents, didn't he?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. Now, one quick question, you mentioned on your direct that Ghislaine had a share, I think, in a charter plane that she could use; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That's like sharing a plane, you can't use it anytime you want; right?
DAVID RODGERS: You have to request it. It's not there at your beckon call.
MR. EVERDELL: Because other people use that same plane; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But isn't it true that Ghislaine only had that share in the 1990s; right?
DAVID RODGERS: I'm not sure how many years she had it. She didn't have it forever, that's for sure.
MR. EVERDELL: So, for example, in the 2000s, if she wanted to fly not on Jeffrey Epstein's plane, she'd have to fly commercial, not on that share of a jet?
DAVID RODGERS: I'm not sure when that terminated.
MR. EVERDELL: Let me ask you about a few other people we mentioned. We talked about Sophie Biddle. I won't ask you about her again. We did talk about Eva Dubin, remember?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She was married to Glenn Dubin; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Saw her on a few of the flights?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You recall we saw one flight where her children were with her; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: There was Selena and Jordan; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, do you know that Epstein was Selena Dubin's godfather, wasn't he?
DAVID RODGERS: I believe so.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, I want to show you a photo that's been admitted under seal as Government Exhibit 250, with the Court's permission.
JUDGE NATHAN: Show the witness GX --
MR. EVERDELL: The witness, the Court, and the deputy.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, can I have a moment to check and see if that's in evidence.
(Pause) Thank you, your Honor. No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: The witness may look at GX250.
DAVID RODGERS: Where is 250?
JUDGE NATHAN: It's on your screen.
MR. EVERDELL: It should be on your screen, sir.
DAVID RODGERS: Oh, okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you see that?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Have you ever seen that photo before?
DAVID RODGERS: No, I have not.
MR. EVERDELL: One moment, your Honor.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Rodgers, I want to show you what is in your binder as C10. There should be a tab, C10.
DAVID RODGERS: Is this your binder?
MR. EVERDELL: The binder I gave to you, yeah. Is there a tab, C10, there?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, I have C10.
MR. EVERDELL: We can put it on the screen for the Court, the deputy, and the witness if he wants.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Rodgers, have you ever seen this picture?
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recognize the person in that picture?
DAVID RODGERS: I'm not sure positively, but it could be Eva.
MR. EVERDELL: Eva Dubin?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And do you notice anything in particular about Eva Dubin in that photograph?
DAVID RODGERS: Is she pregnant?
MR. EVERDELL: Does she appear pregnant to you?
DAVID RODGERS: Looks like it.
MR. EVERDELL: Is that a fair and accurate depiction of how Eva Dubin looked to you at the time that she was pregnant?
DAVID RODGERS: I never saw her like that.
MR. EVERDELL: Oh, okay. Then I think you can put that away. Let's look at Government Exhibit 662 at page 43, please. 662R, I should say.
JUDGE NATHAN: Which is in?
MR. EVERDELL: This is in. This is the flight logs again, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you see the flight on August 18th at the top of the page from Teterboro to Palm Beach? It's the second one.
DAVID RODGERS: Give me a second.
MR. EVERDELL: Sure.
DAVID RODGERS: It's page 43 and what number?
MR. EVERDELL: It's page 43 and it's flight number 878.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That flight on August 18th of 1996?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And that's a flight from Teterboro to Palm Beach; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And the passengers on that flight are Epstein and Selena --
DAVID RODGERS: That's right.
MR. EVERDELL: Ghislaine Maxwell is not on that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Further down that same page, there is a flight on September 12th of 1996 from Teterboro to Palm Beach; right? That's flight 891?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: The passengers on that, again, are Epstein and Selena --
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Ghislaine Maxwell is not on that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: No, she is not.
MR. EVERDELL: Selena was somebody that Epstein was in a romantic relationship with at that time?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she was in her 20s or 30s at that time; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall when -- I want to ask you about Emmy Taylor who we talked about before. Do you recall the first time that Emmy Taylor flew on your planes?
DAVID RODGERS: Probably 1997.
MR. EVERDELL: All right. We'll take a look at the same exhibit, 662R at 51, page 51. We'll look at the flight on October 17th, which is right at the top from Teterboro to Palm Beach, flight 1039. Do you see that?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And do you see that Emmy is listed as a passenger on that flight?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: To your knowledge, is this roughly around the first time you would -- that she would have flown on Epstein's planes?
DAVID RODGERS: I believe so.
MR. EVERDELL: Now I want to ask you about some different names. Are you familiar with the name Annie Farmer?
DAVID RODGERS: What is it.
MR. EVERDELL: Annie Farmer?
DAVID RODGERS: Oh, Annie Farmer, I've heard the name.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall ever seeing Annie Farmer on any of the flights?
DAVID RODGERS: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: And according to your flight log, there is no record of anyone named Annie Farmer flying on Epstein's planes; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now I want to show you documents that are in your binder that are admitted as LV4 and LV5. They're admitted under seal.
MS. COMEY: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: With the Court's permission, I'll have the members of the jury pull it up in their folders.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Comey.
MS. COMEY: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: So in the folder, members of the jury, you may take out and look at LV4 and LV5.
DAVID RODGERS: I don't have anything under LV5.
MR. EVERDELL: Sorry, sir, did you --
DAVID RODGERS: LV5 is empty. There is nothing here.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you have -- well, let me give you mine.
MR. EVERDELL: May I approach, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Rodgers, I want you to take a look at those documents, LV4 and LV5, which are admitted under seal. If the jurors have those, as well. Each one of those documents has a name on it; correct? Just yes or no.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I don't want you to tell me the names on those documents. But for LV4, do you see that name?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm going to refer to that person as Kate; okay?
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you see Kate's true first name on the paper I gave you, LV4; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall meeting anyone with Kate's true name on any flights?
DAVID RODGERS: I don't recall. I'd have to check the logbook.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, sitting here today, to your knowledge, there isn't anyone in your flight log with Kate's true first name reflecting that she flew on one of Epstein's planes?
DAVID RODGERS: Not that I'm aware of, but I'd have to check my flight logs to see.
MR. EVERDELL: Understood. I'll go with what you recall at this point. If you could look at LV5.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Also has a name on it; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm going to use that person's first name and refer to her as Carolyn; okay?
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you see Carolyn's full name on the paper in front of you?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall meeting anyone or seeing anyone with Carolyn's full name on any flights?
DAVID RODGERS: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: To your knowledge, there is no record of anybody with that name flying on any of Epstein's planes?
DAVID RODGERS: Not that I'm aware, but I'd have to check my logbook to see for sure.
MR. EVERDELL: Understood.
JUDGE NATHAN: Put those away?
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, put those away, please.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MR. EVERDELL: Shall I continue, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: As opposed to what?
MR. EVERDELL: Good question. I thought it was later than it actually was.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just feels like it. You can keep going.
MR. EVERDELL: That hurt, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: No, just the time of the day.
MR. EVERDELL: I understand.
BY MR. EVERDELL:
MR. EVERDELL: Let's move on, Mr. Rodgers. Let me ask about where you -- some of the residences. You said that Epstein's residence in Palm Beach -- well, I don't think you said this. It was located at 358 El Brillo Way; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you remember a time when the El Brillo Way residence was being renovated and Epstein had to temporarily move to a rental residence in Palm Beach?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, I do.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall where the rental residence was located?
DAVID RODGERS: It was south of where he lived at El Brillo, and it was, from what I remember, right across the street from the ocean.
MR. EVERDELL: And do you recall when that renovation took place?
DAVID RODGERS: I would say -- I really don't recall, but I do recall being there to talk about -- I believe it was the G2B that we were getting. So that would have been sometime in 1994, I think.
MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So your recollection is that there was a move to a rental residence sometime in 1994; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: I think so, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So that would not have been 358 El Brillo Way when he was residing there?
MR. EVERDELL: It's another address in Palm Beach?
DAVID RODGERS: It's another address.
MR. EVERDELL: Do you recall how long Mr. Epstein was living in the rental address while the renovations were going on at El Brillo Way?
DAVID RODGERS: I don't remember, but it was certainly months. I don't know if it was years, but I think it was certainly months.
MR. EVERDELL: Could it have been as much as a year?
DAVID RODGERS: It's possible, it could have been a year.
MR. EVERDELL: So if it's '94, that could have been 1994 into 1995 that he was in this rental residence?
DAVID RODGERS: That's possible.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, just to move to the residence in New Mexico, your recollection was that he bought that rental residence -- I'm sorry. That residence in New Mexico in I think the mid 1990s; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes. I want to say the closing, if I remember correctly, was in January of 1993.
MR. EVERDELL: When he first bought the property, the large main house on the property wasn't built yet?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: That was under construction for several years?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And that wasn't even ready to be inhabited until the late 1990s; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And Mr. Epstein stayed in a trailer of sorts until the property was ready to be lived in; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And where did you stay?
DAVID RODGERS: I stayed at the bunkhouse.
MR. EVERDELL: That was in Ranch Central?
DAVID RODGERS: Ranch Central.
MR. EVERDELL: That was separate from where the trailer was?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Let me ask you a few questions about where Mr. Epstein lived and where Ghislaine lived in New York in this time period.
DAVID RODGERS: This is 1990 --
MR. EVERDELL: We'll start in the 1990s.
DAVID RODGERS: 1990.
MR. EVERDELL: I'm going to start with Mr. Epstein.
DAVID RODGERS: All right.
MR. EVERDELL: He had two different residences in New York from 1991 to 2005, let's call it; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Three that I remember.
MR. EVERDELL: Did you visit all three of these?
DAVID RODGERS: Two I visited.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, the first one you visited was on 69th Street; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: So that's where he was living when you first had the job when you first got hired in 1991; right?
DAVID RODGERS: I think day 1, I thought that he lived in an apartment, but I could be mistaken, but it was very soon after that that he was at 69th Street.
MR. EVERDELL: So almost -- very shortly after you were hired by him, he moved into 69th Street; right?
DAVID RODGERS: I think so.
MR. EVERDELL: He may have lived somewhere else before that?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But at some point in the mid '90s, he moved to a townhouse on 71st Street; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That was in 1996 that he did that; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that was 9 East 71st Street?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Let's talk about Ghislaine's residences in the same period. You recall a few residences that you visited for her; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You recall that -- you think the first one you recall her living in was on 59th Street; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you don't know yourself whether or not she owned that residence; right?
DAVID RODGERS: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: You don't know whether, for example, she may have been just renting a room in that residence?
DAVID RODGERS: I do not.
MR. EVERDELL: Are you aware of the fact that she was simply renting a room from a friend in that residence and didn't actually own that residence?
DAVID RODGERS: I have no idea.
MR. EVERDELL: But at some point after that, she moved to a small apartment that she did own; right?
DAVID RODGERS: I don't know if she owned it or not.
MR. EVERDELL: But she moved to the apartment on the Upper East Side; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: At some point after that, she moved to a different apartment which was bigger?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: That was on 84th Street?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: At some point, she moves to 65th Street to a townhouse; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So it's fair to say that all of those residences that I just described where Ms. Maxwell lived were different from the residences where Mr. Epstein lived; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So at all times from '91 into the 2000s, Ms. Maxwell -- Ghislaine retained a separate residence from Mr. Epstein?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Rodgers, I want to ask you about your sense of a relationship between Mr. Epstein and Ghislaine. Okay?
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: You flew with them on numerous flights; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you interacted with them on a regular basis in the '90s and the 2000s; correct?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, from your perspective, Ghislaine always had an employment role with Mr. Epstein; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And to you, she appeared to be someone who took care of his properties; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She managed the various properties?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She managed the property managers who were on site at the properties?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: She hired staff for these residences?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She would oversee the repairs and renovations for these residences, things like that?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she was also responsible for purchases, you said; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So she would purchase items for the house, like furniture items, things like that?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She would do the same for the planes, too; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She decorated the residences and the planes?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: This was a pretty big job; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Very big.
MR. EVERDELL: And these were huge properties with lots of staff; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And there were lots of these properties?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And they demanded constant upkeep and supervision; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And there were numerous renovation and building projects going on at any given time at this time period at these properties?
DAVID RODGERS: Right. Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she dealt with the pilots like yourself; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: One of her responsibilities was, for example, approving your expenses?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she approved your vacation time?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: So if there was a problem with the planes in any way, shape, or form, she was the point of contact for that kind of an issue; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she performed those roles for Epstein throughout the 1990s; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you characterized her as Epstein's number 2, I think is what you said; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, your daily interaction with her happened to be about things related to the planes; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And that was one of her responsibilities for Mr. Epstein?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But Mr. Epstein had lots of people helping him run his affairs day-to-day; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: He had an office with lots of different assistants doing lots of different things for him; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But you interacted mostly with Ghislaine because she was in charge of the planes; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: But she wasn't, for example -- although she managed the properties, she wasn't on site at the properties all the time?
MR. EVERDELL: There were property managers who ran the day-to-day things for the properties; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She was just supervising those people?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, setting aside Ghislaine's employment relationship with Epstein, let's focus a bit on her personal relationship with Mr. Epstein; okay?
DAVID RODGERS: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: You met her soon after you started working for Epstein in 1991; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, she was on the first --
MR. EVERDELL: When you first started, I think it appeared to you that they were friends?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: At that point in the early '90s, it didn't seem to you that she had a romantic relationship with Epstein in those first few years; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: No, I kind of feel like there was a -- well, maybe some relationship building, you know, from '91, '92.
MR. EVERDELL: Hard to say though?
DAVID RODGERS: Yeah, it's hard for me to say.
MR. EVERDELL: But I guess at some point it seemed to you that they were involved romantically in some way; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But it wasn't really clear to you whether they were sort of boyfriend-girlfriend, that sort of relationship; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Well, I'm not sure exactly when that happened.
MR. EVERDELL: But at some point, they did have some sort of a romantic relationship? Let's characterize it that way.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, it never appeared to you that Ghislaine was pregnant at any time; right?
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw any pictures of her pregnant at any of the residences; right?
MR. EVERDELL: Now, whatever the personal relationship between them might have been, at some point in the 1990s, that stopped; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: From your perspective; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She still worked for Epstein; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: She still took care of the residences?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And she was still his friend; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: But it seemed to you that she no longer had a romantic relationship with him; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And in the 2000s, it seemed like Ghislaine's role in his life was lessening; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Epstein brought in other people to help him run his day-to-day business at that point; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: You testified that Sarah Kellen appeared around 2000 -- sorry. 2001; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yeah, September 2001.
MR. EVERDELL: And she was one of these new assistants at that time period; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you started speaking to her or Larry Visoski started speaking to her?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: There were many other assistants that appeared over the years in the 2000s, weren't there?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And it's your recollection, wasn't it, that in 2003 or 2004, Ghislaine wasn't flying nearly as much with Mr. Epstein anymore at that point; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That is correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Isn't it true that by 2004 or thereabouts, Ghislaine was in a committed relationship with another man?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You're familiar with Ted Waitt?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: He is the cofounder of Gateway computers?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Ghislaine was in a relationship with Ted Waitt by 2004, wasn't she?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And she was separating from Epstein?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Just a moment, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: I just have a few topics, your Honor. Okay?
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Mr. Rodgers, slightly different question. You, I believe, received subpoenas for your flight logs as part of civil litigation in the past; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you had to turn over your flight logs to the people who requested the flight logs; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, I -- the flight logs were turned over to the FBI.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, the flight logs were turned over to the FBI, but weren't they also turned over to plaintiffs' lawyers as part of a civil litigation?
MS. COMEY: Objection. Foundation.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled. You may answer.
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, that is correct. I personally didn't, but my attorney forwarded, yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I see. Your attorney produced those to the other side's attorneys who had requested them; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And these were in connection of lawsuits of people who were suing Jeffrey Epstein; right?
MS. COMEY: Objection. Foundation.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MR. EVERDELL: You did turn over your flight logs to these plaintiffs' lawyers in connection with the civil litigation; right?
MS. COMEY: Objection. Misstates the testimony.
MR. EVERDELL: Your attorney, on your behalf, turned over your flight logs to the plaintiffs' lawyers in the civil litigation; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, that's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And that occurred, I think, back in the late 2000s, 2009 or so, 8 or 9; is that about right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's about right.
MR. EVERDELL: So your flight logs had been given to other people, besides yourself, all the way back in 2008 or 9; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And they were now in the hands of the lawyers representing people who were suing Jeffrey Epstein; right?
MS. COMEY: Objection. Foundation.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
DAVID RODGERS: Repeat the question.
MR. EVERDELL: Your flight logs, after your lawyer produced them on your behalf, were in the hands of plaintiffs' lawyers who were suing Jeffrey Epstein?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Let me ask you a few final questions, Mr. Rodgers. Did Mr. Epstein give you any gifts while you were employed with him?
DAVID RODGERS: Like, Christmas bonuses.
MR. EVERDELL: Well, let me ask you a specific question. You have children, Mr. Rodgers?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: How many children do you have?
DAVID RODGERS: One.
MR. EVERDELL: And a son or a daughter?
DAVID RODGERS: Daughter.
MR. EVERDELL: Did Mr. Epstein pay for your daughter's tuition?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: Did he pay for both high school and college?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: These were -- so it was a private high school and then college, as well?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: And this was something that he did for several of his employees; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: All of them, I think.
MR. EVERDELL: And did you ever mention this to Ghislaine that Jeffrey Epstein was paying for your daughter's tuition?
DAVID RODGERS: I don't recall. I assume she probably knew.
MR. EVERDELL: From your perspective, she was aware of the fact that Jeffrey was paying --
DAVID RODGERS: I think she was, yeah.
MR. EVERDELL: And did you ever ask Jeffrey Epstein to pay for your daughter's tuition or did he do it of his own accord?
DAVID RODGERS: He was very big on education and he just let us know early on that he would do that.
MR. EVERDELL: And so he took an interest in seeing your daughter succeed?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And he didn't ask anything of you in return?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MR. EVERDELL: Now, you knew Ghislaine for at least 15 years or so before she was no longer with Mr. Epstein; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And you interacted with her a fair amount; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: I think you said on your testimony that she had a great personality; right?
DAVID RODGERS: She did.
MR. EVERDELL: You don't have any ill will toward Ghislaine Maxwell?
MR. EVERDELL: And you felt comfortable around her?
DAVID RODGERS: Sure.
MR. EVERDELL: You, as father of a daughter, felt comfortable having your daughter around her, too; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And your daughter was how old in 1994, let's say?
DAVID RODGERS: 1994, she would have been 7.
MR. EVERDELL: And in 2004, she would have been what, 17?
MR. EVERDELL: Or thereabout. So you were comfortable having your teenage daughter spend time with Ghislaine and around Ghislaine; right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: You never saw Ghislaine do anything or say anything that would lead you to believe she was helping Mr. Epstein or anyone else sexually abuse underage girls, did you?
MR. EVERDELL: Because if you had seen something like that, as the father of a daughter, you would have done something, wouldn't you?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MR. EVERDELL: And nothing you saw or heard in the roughly 30 years you worked for Epstein ever gave you even the slightest hint that anything like that was going on; isn't that right?
DAVID RODGERS: That's correct.
MR. EVERDELL: One moment, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Nothing further.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Comey.
MS. COMEY: Briefly, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. COMEY: May I inquire?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Good afternoon, Mr. Rodgers.
DAVID RODGERS: Good afternoon.
MS. COMEY: Did you let your daughter massage Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. COMEY: Did Mr. Epstein ever give you $18.3 million?
MS. COMEY: Do you recall being asked on cross examination about Mr. Epstein's New York residence on 71st Street?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Do you know the exact year when Mr. Epstein acquired that residence?
DAVID RODGERS: Not precisely. Probably 1996.
MS. COMEY: Are you certain about that or are you estimating?
DAVID RODGERS: No, I'm estimating.
MS. COMEY: Do you recall being asked questions about the Florida residence of Mr. Epstein's?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: You were asked about renovations on cross examination; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: Now, you said you recalled a particular conversation with Mr. Epstein during those renovations; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: What was that conversation about?
DAVID RODGERS: At the time we were getting -- I believe it was the G2B and it was -- we were trying to layout about what we wanted to do for the interior and I recall being there at that house to talk about that.
MS. COMEY: And was that around the time you got the G2B?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes, that would have been -- I believe that would have been -- in the year 1994 or sometime. I don't know what month.
MS. COMEY: When did you buy the G2B?
DAVID RODGERS: We bought the G2B in October -- I'm sorry. February 2nd of 1994.
MS. COMEY: So that was about six months or more before you traveled to Traverse City, Michigan, in 1994?
DAVID RODGERS: Yeah, it was eight -- eight months before. I'm sorry. You're right. Six months. You're right.
MS. COMEY: And did you work at the Palm Beach house?
MS. COMEY: Who worked at the Palm Beach house that you know of in the 1990s?
DAVID RODGERS: That would have been Juan Alessi and his wife and I can't think of anyone else.
MS. COMEY: Do you recall being asked about a person we're referring to as Jane on cross examination?
DAVID RODGERS: Yes.
MS. COMEY: And do you recall being shown defense LV3A and defense LV3B, two photographs?
DAVID RODGERS: I recall that, but can I look at the photographs?
MS. COMEY: With the Judge's permission, I have no problem with that.
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes. A. Oh, I think I know what it is. Yes, I recall.
MS. COMEY: And the person in that photograph has the same first name as Jane's true first name; is that right?
DAVID RODGERS: Correct.
MS. COMEY: Who did you meet first, Jane or the person in those photographs?
DAVID RODGERS: Jane.
(Continued on next page)
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: When did you meet the person in those photographs?
DAVID RODGERS: September of 2003.
MS. COMEY: And about when do you remember meeting Jane?
DAVID RODGERS: November of 1996.
MS. COMEY: And what makes you feel so confident?
DAVID RODGERS: Based upon my logbook.
MS. COMEY: Do you remember ever meeting anyone else on Jeffrey Epstein's planes who had that same first name other than those two people?
DAVID RODGERS: I do not.
MS. COMEY: One moment, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
(Counsel conferred)
MS. COMEY: Nothing further.
MR. EVERDELL: Nothing, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Mr. Rodgers, you may step down. You are excused.
DAVID RODGERS: Thank you.
(Witness excused)
JUDGE NATHAN: And, members of the jury, we'll break for the -- I assume you don't have a six-minute witness.
MS. COMEY: No, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. We'll break for the evening. Same schedule tomorrow. And thank you so much. Have a great evening. We'll see you tomorrow.
(Jury not present)
JUDGE NATHAN: Everyone may be seated. Okay. Matters to take up?
MS. MOE: Your Honor, we just wanted to provide the Court with an update on timing. We anticipate that we may rest tomorrow or, if things run long, on Friday morning.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Does the defense anticipate moving to a defense case after the close of the government's case?
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, we do have witnesses. I think we haven't had the chance to confer with the government yet, but I think it might make sense, especially if we finish on Thursday potentially, to have the charge conference on Friday so we can have time to fully address it.
JUDGE NATHAN: I'll need you to pull up the mic.
MR. EVERDELL: We will likely have an application at the end of the government's case, as is typical for the defense. And we'd want the chance to be heard on that as well.
JUDGE NATHAN: So my thinking had been the charge conference either the evening of the 16th or, if the parties were interested in taking me up on Saturday the 18th. So I suppose it depends if you're saying there is -- you won't be -- well, I would prefer, given just timing of when I'm going to be able to get you the charge, to not do it Friday, unless you don't have a case to put on on Friday.
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, to be frank, we do -- the government has shaved a considerable amount of its case off in the last day. And we have witness issues. People are traveling. We had been budgeting that we would start our case the following week after the three-day break, simply because we thought, given the number of witnesses that were left, that we would be maybe even going into the following week before the defense case started. So given that they have now trimmed their case significantly in the last day, we are trying to hustle witnesses. It's not that easy. So our strong preference, your Honor, would be that if we can start the defense case the following -- I'm sorry, Thursday of the following week. So we would fill up Friday with the charge conference, if the Court isn't -- if we want to do it at a later time, we can also do that. But we prefer not to start the defense case until --
JUDGE NATHAN: Right. I think we've come around to the request, which is given the expedition of the government's case, your request is to start the defense case, whatever it looks like, on Thursday when we return.
MR. EVERDELL: That is the request, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: And so if we can use this Friday for the charging conference, we could do that or we could do the charging conference on the evening of the 16th.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: Or if you think your case will last through Friday, if the parties are interested in the Saturday offer.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. We defer to the Court with respect to timing. And it may perhaps just depend on the sequencing and timing of how things pan out tomorrow or Friday morning. We would just note with respect to sequencing, the Court has ordered the defense to produce Rule 26.2 disclosures at the conclusions -- at the conclusion of the government's case. And so we would respectfully request those materials again at the conclusion of our case, irrespective of the timing of the beginning of the defense case.
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes. So that will either be tomorrow or Friday, it sounds like.
MR. EVERDELL: Understood, your Honor. Understood.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Okay. That's helpful. I'm comfortable with the defense request in light of the speed with which we've moved and my scheduling conflict, to -- since that takes us through till Thursday, to let the defense begin its case on Thursday, assuming the government is finished, of course. And I'll think about whether this Friday for the charging conference makes sense and is feasible. And in any event, I'll hear your motion at the close of the case. It may mean -- so the result may be that the jury has Friday in addition to Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, if everybody's comfortable with that. Yes. Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. That's helpful. I'll let you know. Obviously if the charging conference is Friday, I'll have to get you the charge before Friday, which is possible. It may not be a lot before Friday.
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, we're happy to accommodate the Court's schedule on the charge. If you'd prefer to do it Saturday, I just --
JUDGE NATHAN: I don't have a preference. I just wanted to make that available to the parties because it can be difficult, I know, to review the charge as trial is proceeding. So I'm not sure I have a preference. Go ahead.
MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, we're simply trying not to waste the Friday. But, to be honest, the charge is obviously very important and is going to require some careful review. So we'll defer to the Court on what makes the most sense. But we could do it on Friday if the Court wants to take advantage of the day, but I think it would probably make more sense to do it at a later day and we'll make ourselves available.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Does the government have a preference?
JUDGE NATHAN: I think from my perspective, I would like to use the jury's time on Friday, if we could. But if we can't, then I suspect they won't mind the extra time off. I'll let you know tomorrow if I can get you the charge in time to do a charging conference on Friday. But I hear you that, all things being equal, more time with the charge when you're not trying the case is helpful, I presume, for both sides.
MR. EVERDELL: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: I do sometimes push for speed, you may have heard. But given where we are in the schedule, I think taking time to be careful and getting your full input, considered input, is appropriate. Okay.
MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor.
MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Am I going to get briefing on 52? Because if so, I want to schedule for it.
MR. ROHRBACH: The parties haven't conferred, your Honor; but I suspect there will be briefing tonight. The government will file its brief by 8 p.m. or we can confer immediately after this, right now, your Honor, and get a timeline.
JUDGE NATHAN: I guess the question is so you presumably need resolution before the close of the government's case.
MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: That could be -- it could be tomorrow, but I suppose -- well, if you want resolution tomorrow, following briefing by both sides, then you'll be mindful of the Court's schedule.
MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: And I would need briefing completed, I think, by 10 p.m. tonight. Now, if I have till Friday to resolve it, if I have till Friday to resolve it, then you can have till midnight, I suppose. But I gather we don't know whether we'll have the jury here on Friday or not.
MR. ROHRBACH: Since we don't know, the government would prefer to brief it tonight. We could propose doing simultaneous briefing at 10 p.m.
JUDGE NATHAN: No, no, no. I don't think that makes sense, because I don't know what new argument the government is going to make and neither does the defense.
MR. ROHRBACH: That makes sense.
JUDGE NATHAN: So I'll say 7 for the government, 10 for the defense.
MR. PAGLIUCA: That's fine, your Honor. And it may be quick on our side, since it seems to me that this horse has been beaten thoroughly during the briefing already in this case.
JUDGE NATHAN: You'll confer, obviously, if there's something to confer about. But otherwise let's do that for the briefing schedule and then I'll get you resolution. I don't know if it will be in the morning or by the time the government rests.
MR. ROHRBACH: Understood, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Anything else, folks?
MR. EVERDELL: No, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Thank you. Have a good night. See you at 8:45.
(Adjourned to December 9, 2021 at 8:45 a.m.)