Shawn — Direct/Cross
494 linesDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Good morning.
MS. COMEY: Would you please make sure the microphone is close to your mouth so that everyone can hear you.
MS. COMEY: Yes. Thank you.
MS. COMEY: Would you please state and spell your first name for us.
MS. COMEY: Shawn, I'd like to ask you to turn in the binder that is in front of you to what's been already admitted in evidence as Government Exhibit 20.
MS. COMEY: And, your Honor, I'd ask for permission for the jurors to do the same in their binders.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Sternheim, without objection?
MS. STERNHEIM: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: GX-20, please, members of the jury. That's in the large binder; correct?
MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Shawn, what is Government Exhibit 20?
MS. COMEY: And is your full name on this exhibit?
MS. COMEY: We can set that aside. Thank you very much. Shawn, how old are you?
MS. COMEY: In what state were you born?
MS. COMEY: Where did you grow up?
MS. COMEY: How far did you go in school?
MS. COMEY: And what kind of work do you do now?
MS. COMEY: What schools did you attend for high school?
MS. COMEY: In what town are those schools?
JUDGE NATHAN: Shawn, could you move a little bit closer to the mic and keep your voice up please. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Go ahead.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Will you tell us again what schools you attended?
MS. COMEY: And in what town are those schools?
MS. COMEY: When you attended Survivors Charter School, what was the first name of your girlfriend?
MS. COMEY: Would you please take a look in the binder next to you at what is in evidence as Government Exhibit 11. Let me know when you're there please.
MS. COMEY: Please take a look at the name at the top of that exhibit. Is that Carolyn's full name?
MS. COMEY: Okay. You can set that aside. Thank you. About how old was Carolyn when you first started dating her?
MS. COMEY: About how old were you when you first started dating Carolyn?
MS. COMEY: For about how long did you and Carolyn date when she was a teenager?
MS. COMEY: While you were dating Carolyn, how, if at all, did she make money?
SHAWN: She only had two jobs ever that I know. One was worked at Arby's; and the other, she worked for Jeffrey.
MS. COMEY: Do you know Jeffrey's full name?
MS. COMEY: What is it?
MS. COMEY: Do you know how she first met Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. COMEY: What was that schoolmate's name?
MS. COMEY: Do you know her last name?
MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 113.
MS. COMEY: Do you recognize the person in that photograph?
MS. COMEY: Who is that?
MS. COMEY: We can take that down. Thank you, Ms. Drescher.
MS. COMEY: About when do you remember meeting Virginia Roberts?
MS. COMEY: And when you would spend time with Virginia, who else, if anyone, was around?
MS. COMEY: Do you know his last name?
MS. COMEY: What, if anything, would you, Carolyn, Tony, and Virginia do when you hung out together?
MS. COMEY: Did Carolyn meet Virginia and Tony around the same time you did?
MS. COMEY: How did Jeffrey Epstein come up in that group of people?
SHAWN: Virginia said that she worked for a guy out on Palm Beach. And Carolyn could make money if she wanted to come do massages.
MS. COMEY: Were you present when Virginia said that to Carolyn?
MS. COMEY: About how long after you met Virginia did she bring up this topic of massages in Palm Beach?
MS. COMEY: What do you remember Virginia saying to Carolyn about that?
SHAWN: That she could come out and give a guy a massage, and she would leave with a couple hundred dollars.
MS. COMEY: What was the name of the guy?
MS. COMEY: How did Carolyn respond?
MS. COMEY: After that conversation, do you know if Carolyn went to Jeffrey Epstein's house?
MS. COMEY: How do you know that?
MS. COMEY: Who else went?
MS. COMEY: How did you all get to Jeffrey Epstein's house?
MS. COMEY: Where was Jeffrey Epstein's house?
MS. COMEY: At that time where were you and Carolyn living, in what town?
MS. COMEY: What's the difference between Palm Beach and West Palm Beach?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'm going to object to this as lacking foundation. 602.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained. Could I ask you to move closer to the mic when you talk, but wait for the next question.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: How long did you live in the West Palm Beach area?
MS. COMEY: And how often did you go to Palm Beach when you lived in West Palm Beach?
MS. COMEY: Why did you go there very rarely?
MS. COMEY: In Palm Beach?
MS. COMEY: Did you ever go inside Jeffrey Epstein's home?
MS. COMEY: Did you see the outside?
MS. COMEY: When you first went to Jeffrey Epstein's house, do you remember what it looked like on the outside?
MS. COMEY: Did you go there multiple times after that first time?
MS. COMEY: Did the color later change?
MS. COMEY: To what?
MS. COMEY: That first time you went to Jeffrey Epstein's house, who, if anyone, went inside the house?
MS. COMEY: About how long were they inside?
MS. COMEY: After Carolyn and Virginia came back outside, what, if anything, did they have with them?
MS. COMEY: In what denomination?
MS. COMEY: After that first time, did you go with Carolyn to Jeffrey Epstein's house again?
MS. COMEY: About how often did you go with Carolyn to Jeffrey Epstein's house?
MS. COMEY: To the best of your knowledge, about when did Carolyn stop going over to Jeffrey Epstein's house in Palm Beach?
MS. COMEY: Do you remember about how old Carolyn was when you went to Georgia?
MS. COMEY: Are you and Carolyn still together now?
MS. COMEY: About when did you break up?
MS. COMEY: During the period when Carolyn was going to Jeffrey Epstein's house with you, do you know how she would schedule times to go there?
MS. COMEY: How many people do you remember calling your phone?
MS. COMEY: Were they male or female?
MS. COMEY: Do you know any of their names?
MS. COMEY: Other than Sarah, do you know the names of any others?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'm going to object to this under 602 and 801.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment.
MS. COMEY: I'm happy to rephrase the question, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: The other two callers, did they tell you their names when calling you?
MS. COMEY: Do you remember anything about the voices of the other two callers?
MS. COMEY: Can you tell --
MS. COMEY: Can you tell us about their voices?
MS. COMEY: When these three women called, what did they say to you about Carolyn?
MS. COMEY: And how did you respond each time you received one of these calls?
MS. COMEY: Do you remember what your phone number was at the time?
MS. COMEY: Other than calling you, did you observe anyone else receiving calls to schedule Carolyn to see Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. COMEY: And when her mother received those calls, what did you see her do?
MS. COMEY: When you went with Carolyn, how did you two get to Jeffrey Epstein's house?
MS. COMEY: At some point did that change?
MS. COMEY: And then who would drive?
MS. COMEY: Why couldn't Carolyn drive herself?
MS. COMEY: You mentioned cabs. Where would the cabs pick you up, without giving a specific address?
MS. COMEY: At whose house?
MS. COMEY: Each time you went with Carolyn to Jeffrey Epstein's house, who would go inside?
MS. COMEY: And what would you do?
MS. COMEY: For about how long would you wait for Carolyn?
MS. COMEY: And when she came out each time, what did she have with her?
MS. COMEY: Why do you remember the denomination?
SHAWN: Because we used to cash those in at that one gas station on Palm Beach. It was the only place that would accept hundred dollar bills. In West Palm they don't accept hundred dollar bills.
MS. COMEY: Over the multiple times you went with Carolyn to Jeffrey Epstein's house, who, if anyone, did you meet at the house?
MS. COMEY: How many times did you meet Jeffrey?
MS. COMEY: Where was that?
MS. COMEY: What do you remember from that interaction?
SHAWN: He was late. And he came pulling up in a car, stopped and got out, and introduced himself, and showed off his car a little bit.
MS. COMEY: Other than Jeffrey, did you meet anyone at his house?
MS. COMEY: Can we pull up what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 112, please, Ms. Drescher.
MS. COMEY: Do you recognize the person in this photograph?
MS. COMEY: Who is that?
MS. COMEY: We can take that down. Thank you, Ms. Drescher.
MS. COMEY: Other than Jeffrey and Sarah, did Carolyn mention interacting with anyone else at Jeffrey Epstein's house?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay. 801.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment.
MS. COMEY: Prior consistent statement, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained. You may answer.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think you said "sustained."
JUDGE NATHAN: I did. I meant overruled. Safe. I meant overruled. Overruled. You may answer.
MS. COMEY: Sure. Other than Jeffrey and Sarah, did Carolyn mention interacting with anyone else at Jeffrey Epstein's Palm Beach house?
MS. COMEY: Did Carolyn tell you that woman's name?
MS. COMEY: Did Carolyn say anything about that woman's first name?
MS. COMEY: Why?
SHAWN: She wasn't able -- she didn't have the reading ability or she couldn't -- it was foreign to her; she didn't know it.
MS. COMEY: Do you know how far Carolyn went in school?
MS. COMEY: When Carolyn was 14 years old and going to Jeffrey Epstein's house, could you describe her level of intelligence and education?
JUDGE NATHAN: Shawn, could you move the mic a little more directly in front of you, please. Thank you.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just speak up. Go ahead.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Did you and Carolyn ever talk about Maxwell?
MS. COMEY: Did you ever meet Maxwell?
MS. COMEY: Other than money, what, if any, gifts do you remember seeing Carolyn receive around the time she was going to Jeffrey Epstein's house?
MS. COMEY: What kind of package?
MS. COMEY: No. Do you know what the carrier was?
MS. COMEY: Where did she receive the package?
MS. COMEY: In West Palm Beach?
MS. COMEY: Did you see what was in the package?
MS. COMEY: What was in the package?
MS. COMEY: Do you remember what the return address on that package was?
MS. COMEY: Any reason that stands out to you?
MS. COMEY: Other than Carolyn, Virginia, and Tony, did you ever go with anyone else to Jeffrey Epstein's Palm Beach house?
MS. COMEY: About how many people did you go with?
MS. COMEY: What were those two people's first names?
MS. COMEY: What was Amanda's last name?
MS. COMEY: I'd like now to ask you to turn in your binder to what is in evidence as Government Exhibit 15, please.
MS. COMEY: And, your Honor, I would ask that the jurors do the same in their binders, please.
JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Pagliuca? Okay? GX-15?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. You may look at, in the large binder, GX-15, please.
MS. COMEY: Shawn, looking at the entry that says "child name," without saying it out loud, is that Melissa's full name?
MS. COMEY: We can set that aside. Thank you.
MS. COMEY: How did you know Amanda and Melissa?
MS. COMEY: Were you dating them at the same time you were dating Carolyn?
MS. COMEY: About how old was Amanda the first time you saw her go to Jeffrey Epstein's house?
MS. COMEY: About how old was Melissa the first --
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'm going to object to the first question under Rule 404(b) and answer.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment.
MS. COMEY: Direct evidence, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: I need to hear it from you.
(Continued on next page)
(At sidebar)
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, this Amanda person was not noticed under 404(b). We had two that were noticed. As I recall, that's the Melissa and Virginia, and that's it.
MS. MENNINGER: Not just 404(b). Your Honor ordered that the government produce to us the names of any victims that they intended to discuss at trial. They gave the names of six individuals; the four that we normally have been talking about, Ms. Roberts, and this last one. But Amanda was not one of the names that they gave. So if they intended to refer to her as a victim in this trial, the deadline to do that was, I think, in September.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, yesterday during her testimony, Carolyn said that Amanda Lazlo was someone who she brought with her. I asked how old Amanda was, and she said how old she was. There was no objection.
MS. MENNINGER: She said 18.
MS. COMEY: This is corroborative -- I don't believe she said 18. This is corroborative testimony. And I would note --
JUDGE NATHAN: Well, the age distinction is an important question. It's entirely not corroborative in identifying a new victim if the testimony yesterday was 18.
MS. COMEY: And, your Honor, I would want to check the transcript for this.
MS. MOE: Your Honor, with respect to the disclosure question, I just wanted to note, the issue for disclosure was who the government would be arguing at trial were the victims here. We don't intend to argue at closing that there's an additional victim Amanda. This is being offered as direct evidence as corroborative testimony of the account of the victims here.
JUDGE NATHAN: Well, direct evidence only if you're suggesting she's a victim of the conspiracy. So that would violate that order. And it's corroborative only if the age matches up.
MS. MOE: Your Honor, our view is that it's direct evidence because it corroborates her account of who she was bringing.
JUDGE NATHAN: Then what's the purpose of the -- sorry. What's the purpose of the age? The testimony yesterday was she believes she was 17. Sustained.
(Continued on next page)
(In open court)
JUDGE NATHAN: Next question.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Did Amanda go alone to Jeffrey Epstein's house or with someone else?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, objection. This was just ruled on at the bench.
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I've moved on from the question that was objected to.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained.
MS. COMEY: Let's talk about Melissa, Shawn. About how old was Melissa when she was going over to Jeffrey Epstein's house?
MS. COMEY: The first time you saw Melissa go to Jeffrey Epstein's house, was she going alone or with someone else?
MS. COMEY: Did they go in together?
MS. COMEY: For about how long were they inside?
MS. COMEY: When they came back out, what, if anything, did they have with them?
MS. COMEY: In what denomination?
MS. COMEY: I'd like you to please turn in your binder to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 105. Let me know when you're there.
MS. COMEY: Do you recognize that?
MS. COMEY: What is it?
MS. COMEY: How do you know it's a picture from Melissa's 16th birthday?
MS. COMEY: Who do we see in this photograph?
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence under seal to protect the privacy of witnesses and third parties.
MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: GX-105 is admitted under seal for the reasons indicated.
(Government's Exhibit 105 received in evidence)
MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would ask that the jurors please turn in their binders to Government Exhibit 105.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. GX-105 in the large binders, please.
BY MS. COMEY:
MS. COMEY: Shawn, can you tell us who we see from right to left in this photograph, please.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sorry. I need you at the microphone, please. A. On the right is Carolyn, then Melissa, then Candace, and then a cousin.
MS. COMEY: And how do you remember this picture?
MS. COMEY: Where were you?
MS. COMEY: And what day was this?
MS. COMEY: We can set that aside. Thank you.
MS. COMEY: Did you go to Jeffrey Epstein's house with Melissa one time or multiple times?
MS. COMEY: About how many times did you go with her when she was with Carolyn?
MS. COMEY: For the rest of the time, who did Melissa go inside with?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Sustained. The jury will disregard the last response.
MS. COMEY: Did she go in by herself?
MS. COMEY: Did she go in by herself multiple times?
MS. COMEY: When she went in by herself, how long would she be inside?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'm going to object on 602 grounds.
JUDGE NATHAN: Overruled.
MS. COMEY: How long did you wait for her?
MS. COMEY: And each time she came out after being in alone, what did she have with her?
MS. COMEY: In what denomination?
MS. COMEY: Remind us about when did you stop going with Carolyn to Jeffrey Epstein's Palm Beach house?
MS. COMEY: May I have a moment, your Honor?
JUDGE NATHAN: You may.
(Counsel conferred)
MS. COMEY: Shawn, were you and Carolyn using drugs around the time when she was going to Jeffrey Epstein's house?
MS. COMEY: Have you been arrested before?
MS. COMEY: Were you arrested in Louisiana in 2015?
MS. COMEY: What were you arrested for?
MS. COMEY: Did you plead guilty to a felony based on your possession of methamphetamine?
MS. COMEY: Were you arrested in Florida in 2017?
MS. COMEY: What were you arrested for?
MS. COMEY: What happened?
MS. COMEY: Did you plead guilty to having a gun after being convicted of a felony?
MS. COMEY: When were you released from prison?
MS. COMEY: Have you been arrested since then?
MS. COMEY: What type of work do you do now?
MS. COMEY: How often do you communicate with Carolyn now?
MS. COMEY: When you do speak, what do you speak about?
MS. COMEY: Do you two share a child?
MS. COMEY: Since you broke up with Carolyn, have you had any conversations with her about what happened with Jeffrey Epstein?
MS. COMEY: Have you had any conversations with Carolyn about your testimony here today?
MS. COMEY: No further questions, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Mr. Pagliuca.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. Briefly.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAGLIUCA:
MR. PAGLIUCA: Shawn, you recall going --
JUDGE NATHAN: Take off your mask.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Shawn, you recall going to the house in Palm Beach in 2002; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And you testified that you and Carolyn shared a phone; is that correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And you would occasionally answer the phone and it would either be Epstein or Sarah Kellen calling; correct?
MS. COMEY: Objection.
JUDGE NATHAN: Just a moment. Overruled.
MR. PAGLIUCA: And you knew the name Sarah because Sarah told you that she was calling on behalf of Epstein; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: You recall Sarah being professional in demeanor; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And then you also recall someone with what you thought was a French accent calling you; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: The first time you met with the government in connection with this case was in a parking lot in Florida around January 4th, 2021, do you recall that?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And you didn't have any communication with the FBI at that point. And then you scheduled a phone meeting with the government or video meeting with the government January 13th, 2021; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And in that meeting, the phone meeting, you identified two people that called you, Sarah and then another European woman with an accent that wasn't British that you couldn't identify; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And those were the only two people that you discussed with the government in that June 13th, 2021 meeting; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And then in the meeting on June 7th, 2021 with the government, that's the third meeting. You recalled again getting calls from Sarah and another woman that you said had a proper foreign accent; correct?
JUDGE NATHAN: Mr. Pagliuca, could I get you to shift the mic a little when you're reading.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Then you had a fifth meeting with the government, July 12th, 2021. You again indicated to the government that you couldn't identify the specific origin of this accent of this woman. Do you recall that?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And you again said it was European and not French, do you recall that?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. And then it wasn't until very close to this trial in November that you first said Maxwell was one of these people calling you; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. Now, you went to some of these meetings with Epstein; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And at one point I think you thought that you saw Sarah in the driveway; is that correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: You never saw, talked to, met, Ms. Maxwell; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And you were getting money, as I understand it, from Carolyn; is that correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And you would use the money from Carolyn to buy drugs; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And you and Carolyn were using marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy, and other pills during that time period; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: You left the state of Florida in 2003 to go to Georgia; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: And you were in Georgia for a period of time while Carolyn was pregnant with your child; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: Right. And then you were there until 2000 -- late 2003, early 4, when your son was born in Florida; correct?
MR. PAGLIUCA: If I could have a moment, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Yes.
MR. PAGLIUCA: Those are all the questions I have, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: Okay. Ms. Comey.
MS. COMEY: No redirect, your Honor.
JUDGE NATHAN: All right. Shawn, you may step down. You are excused.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you.
(Witness excused)
JUDGE NATHAN: The government may call its next witness.
JUDGE NATHAN: One more time.
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. Nicole Hesse, you may come forward.
(Continued on next page)
JUDGE NATHAN: Good morning, Ms. Hesse. NICOLE HESSE, called as a witness by the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
JUDGE NATHAN: Thank you. Please be seated. You may remove your maverick. Please state and spell your full name for the record.
JUDGE NATHAN: Ms. Hesse, if you would please pull the microphone toward you, if you speak directly into it and please keep your voice up. Ms. Moe, you may inquire.